Not By Works

[PaulThomson]

Are you suffering to acquire this "fuller salvation" like the first century Christians suffered?

I myself, have been ridiculed here and there, sometimes my correct eschatology gets me in trouble , but certainly I have never suffered and I would not say I have hid my beliefs in my day to day life.

So should I move to country where Christians are martyred for the faith?

Any Christian who aims to always speak the truth as they perceive it in the light of scripture will suffer pushback and perhaps persecution. It does not have to be physical violence or imprisonment; this opposition and bullying can come even from family members and colleagues and church members.

I cited a multitude of texts that make suffering during sanctification a necessity for maturing in Christ. Salvation is not just being born again (justification), but includes maturation (sanctification) and redemption of the body (adoption/glorification).

A reading of Titus 1,2 and 3 makes it clear that Tit. 3:5 is not saying that works have nothing (ZERO) to do with salvation. in the complete sense.

 

[HeIsHere]

Any Christian who aims to always speak the truth as they perceive it in the light of scripture will suffer pushback and perhaps persecution. It does not have to be physical violence or imprisonment; this opposition and bullying can come even from family members and colleagues and church members.

I cited a multitude of texts that make suffering during sanctification a necessity for maturing in Christ. Salvation is not just being born again (justification), but includes maturation (sanctification) and redemption of the body (adoption/glorification).

A reading of Titus 1,2 and 3 makes it clear that Tit. 3:5 is not saying that works have nothing (ZERO) to do with salvation. in the complete sense.

These are exhortations to preserver in the midst of suffering.
We are positionally sanctified.


Hebrews 10:10
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I believe that sanctification is the event first where we are separated unto Christ (our position) and made holy once and for all, and then it’s a process where we learn to live out that position of holiness.

The process does not sanctify us, it teaches us how to live a sanctified life.

We learn to lean into our renewed spirit in Christ, I do not think this can only occur via suffering, it is more about coming freely to the Well and drawing from God's grace which is readily available to believers in Christ.

 

[wattie]

These are exhortations to preserver in the midst of suffering.
We are positionally sanctified.


Hebrews 10:10
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I believe that sanctification is the event first where we are separated unto Chri
st (our position) and made holy once and for all, and then it’s a process where we learn to live out that position of holiness.

The process does not sanctify us, it teaches us how to live a sanctified life.

We learn to lean into our renewed spirit in Christ, I do not think this can only occur via suffering, it is more about coming freely to the Well and drawing from God's grace which is readily available to believers in Christ.

Amen..freely from the well. I like that

 

[Magenta]

Amen..freely from the well. I like that

Isaiah 12:2-3

 

[PaulThomson]

These are exhortations to preserver in the midst of suffering.
We are positionally sanctified.


Hebrews 10:10
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I believe that sanctification is the event first where we are separated unto Christ (our position) and made holy once and for all, and then it’s a process where we learn to live out that position of holiness.

The process does not sanctify us, it teaches us how to live a sanctified life.

We learn to lean into our renewed spirit in Christ, I do not think this can only occur via suffering, it is more about coming freely to the Well and drawing from God's grace which is readily available to believers in Christ.

Would I be right to infer from your objections, HeIsHere that they stem from you perhaps holding to the doctrine of "Once saved always saved" or something similar ?

yes were get sanctified when we get justified and we begin to be glorified as well. But I am of the view that these are processes that continue throughout our sojourn; that we become more sanctified and more glorified as we mature. We are told to pursue holiness (sanctification) without which no one will see the Lord. We are being changed from glory to glory as we glorify Christ.

Jas 1:2
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

2 Tim 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

1 Pet. 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Rom 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[PaulThomson]

I didn't cite Heb 12: 14

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow (diOkete: keep pursuing zealously) peace with all men, and holiness, (hagiasmon: sanctification) without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

BTW I am agnostic in regard to eternal security or not. I don't have a view either way. I don't think it is necessary or Christian discipleship to have a view either way, and as I read the scriptures, they are not clear one way or the other. Some scriptures lean more one way, some lean in the other.

But I do regard scripture as teaching that sanctification and glorification are progressive processes that need to reach a completed state, and are not one-off done-and-dusted events in the life of a Christian.

 

[HeIsHere]

I didn't cite Heb 12: 14

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow (diOkete: keep pursuing zealously) peace with all men, and holiness, (hagiasmon: sanctification) without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

BTW I am agnostic in regard to eternal security or not. I don't have a view either way. I don't think it is necessary or Christian discipleship to have a view either way, and as I read the scriptures, they are not clear one way or the other. Some scriptures lean more one way, some lean in the other.

But I do regard scripture as teaching that sanctification and glorification are progressive processes that need to reach a completed state, and are not one-off done-and-dusted events in the life of a Christian.

It is completely illogical, I think, that a person once justified/decreed righteous by God having accepted the gift of full payment, declared innocent can be once again be declared unjustified.

I have not find any scripture which affirms this justification but many that affirm that spiritual salvation is a one time event.

I do not see that our flesh is being sanctified, it is not repairable. It is the Spirit of Jesus within us that is sanctified and we learn to walk in the Spirit.

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 1 Cor 1:2 NASB


This expositor explains, it is how I see it as well.

While many teachers and preachers teach that a believer is being sanctified, the Bible teaches we are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. Sanctified defined:
Strong’s Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
Those who teach we are being sanctified confuse it with the process of transformation.

Transformation is accomplished by the renewal of our minds to believe what God says about who we are in Christ. It cannot be fully completed until our flesh dies and we get a new glorified body.
(Michael Edwards)

 

[Magenta]

I do not see that our flesh is being sanctified, it is not repairable.

That's not what you said yesterday. You basically said the opposite yesterday.

 

[HeIsHere]

but includes maturation (sanctification)

Would you agree this is the correct definition of sanctification.

**The Greek word for sanctified is “hagiazó”
set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.

I know sometimes it is also carries a sense of piety, becoming good.

As well, the Bible teaches about the renewal of the mind but it does not use the word sanctification. Renewal of the mind and being set apart are different things.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Rom 12:2

 

[HeIsHere]

I have not find any scripture which affirms this justification but many that affirm that spiritual salvation is a one time event.

Correction

*unjustification*

 

[loveme1]

Want to share this:


1 Thessalonians 5

King James Version



5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

[PaulThomson]

It is completely illogical, I think, that a person once justified/decreed righteous by God having accepted the gift of full payment, declared innocent can be once again be declared unjustified.

If one is justified by believing, why can one not possibly cease to be justified by ceasing to believe?

 

[PaulThomson]

I do not see that our flesh is being sanctified, it is not repairable. It is the Spirit of Jesus within us that is sanctified and we learn to walk in the Spirit.

What do you make of 1 Thess. 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The prayer that God sanctify the saints wholly seems to imply that that is not necessarily the case already.

 

[PaulThomson]

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 1 Cor 1:2 NASBThis expositor explains, it is how I see it as well.While many teachers and preachers teach that a believer is being sanctified, the Bible teaches we are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. Sanctified defined:Strong’s Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.Those who teach we are being sanctified confuse it with the process of transformation.Transformation is accomplished by the renewal of our minds to believe what God says about who we are in Christ. It cannot be fully completed until our flesh dies and we get a new glorified body.

I would say that our spirits are fully sanctified at regeneration. We receive a new perfect spirit sealed with the Holy Spirit and impervious to defilement and corruption. But our souls and bodies are not fully sanctified. They are appointed as belonging now to God, set apart covenantally; but we need to keep surrendering them, to God for them to remain set apart practically. So, yes. in a sense we are sanctified when we receive a new spirit; but we

Leviticus 20:7-8

7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the Lord which sanctify you.

1 Peter 2:9-12

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

• Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
  2 Corinthians 7:1
• Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
  James 4:8
• Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
  1 John 3:2-3
• Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.
  Ephesians 5:25-26

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If one is justified by believing, why can one not possibly cease to be justified by ceasing to believe?

That only happens when the one you are trusting in becomes untrustworthy. Or your trust was not real.

thats why John said they were never f us.. if they were of us, they never would have left.. They being people who are antichrist, or against Christ. But where going to the fellowship

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I would say that our spirits are fully sanctified at regeneration. We receive a new perfect spirit sealed with the Holy Spirit and impervious to defilement and corruption. But our souls and bodies are not fully sanctified. They are appointed as belonging now to God, set apart covenantally; but we need to keep surrendering them, to God for them to remain set apart practically. So, yes. in a sense we are sanctified when we receive a new spirit; but we

Leviticus 20:7-8

7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the Lord which sanctify you.

1 Peter 2:9-12

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

• Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
  2 Corinthians 7:1
• Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
  James 4:8
• Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
  1 John 3:2-3
• Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.
  Ephesians 5:25-26

Although the body is dead because of sin (and will continue to remain dead. Because of sin) the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

why do you lack faith in God. Why do you not like Paul become confident that he who began a good work WILL (not might) Complete that work until the day of Christ?

 

[PaulThomson]

That only happens when the one you are trusting in becomes untrustworthy. Or your trust was not real.

thats why John said they were never f us.. if they were of us, they never would have left.. They being people who are antichrist, or against Christ. But where going to the fellowship

Adam and Eve were really trusting God, until Satan deceived them into not trusting Him.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Adam and Eve were really trusting God, until Satan deceived them into not trusting Him.

But they did not yet trust God with their eternity. and they did nto know good from evil.

You and I do. And if we have been born of God. we know where we came from. and unless God fails us, or we were really not born of God. we will never stop trusting him .

But hey, you think you are more powerful than God. go for it.

 

[PaulThomson]

But hey, you think you are more powerful than God. go for it.

Why would you think that I would think that I'm more powerful than the omnipotent God?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Why would you think that I would think that I'm more powerful than the omnipotent God?

Because God said he will never leave nor forsake you. You claim you can rip yourself out of his arms and walk away,