What's the point of sacrifice for forgiveness if no sin is present?
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
7,639 pages!
This thread has been around for a while!
This forum must be older than me.
It's a good topic when it's not about our good works.
This thread has been around for a while!
This forum must be older than me.
It's a good topic when it's not about our good works.
You have to read all the pages before you start posting here.7,639 pages!
This thread has been around for a while!
This forum must be older than me.
It's a good topic when it's not about our good works.
Let me guess.
You were in school when this thread started and now you are a happy Grandpa!
GRANPA, I am 73 and getting older buy the minute.
You need to do more study on Judaism. They call all kinds of service SACRIFIC, not just for sins.
I assume that is the main purpose for the TWO WITNESSES in Revelation, is to teach them that JESUS is their MESSIAH TOO.
One guy joined the conversation once and within about an hour told us he had read everything
The other thing is Matthew 24 of those who endure to the end will be saved.. the salvation in this context isn't eternal salvation.. but save as in deliverance from trails and troubles rather than deliverance of sin in receiving eternal life.
Sometimes Incense is used as a sacrifice for sin, but you must remember, the Jews do not have the New Testament in their Bibles. In some circles they are forbidden to even read the New Testament. I suspect most Messianic Jews started to Read the New Testament, and ended up getting Genuinely SAVED.
Modern Jews believe that forgiveness of sin is obtained through repentance, prayer, and good deeds. Yes they are sincere, but Works will never save you, so they are sincerely wrong. But their salvation is coming, after we are Raptured, and the Two Witnesses come to preach the GOOD NEWS to them, most of the Country will be saved in a single day.
First Fruits is a Sacrifice or waving Grain from partial harvest, in the early in the year.
WOW, I was in a rush, on that last sentence. It should read:
First Fruits is a Sacrifice, but it is only waving Grain from a premature harvest, in the early summer.
QUOTE:
What is the Hebrew word for sacrifice?
Best Answer
Copy
Sacrifice, as in a burnt offering = Korban (קורבן)
to sacrifice (for one's family, etc.) = viter (ויתר)
Answer:
Korban קרבן
The Hebrew word for "sacrifice" (korban, le-hakriv) is from the same root as "to come near, to approach. . . . to become closely involved in a relationship with someone." For this is meant to be the essence of the experience which the bearer of the sacrifice undergoes. Indeed, it is unfortunate that no word in the English language can adequately render the idea behind the Hebrew word korban. We allow ourselves to use the word "sacrifice" for lack of a better word, but it is a highly unsuccessful attempt at translation; it could even be called unfortunate. The idea of a sacrifice or offering seems to indicate a gift or present; giving up something of value for another's benefit, or going without something of value yourself, for the benefit of that other.
https://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Hebrew_word_for_sacrifice
:END QUOTE.
That is what I mean by the JEWS have a different meaning to the WORD Sacrifice.
In Christianity we call that striving to fulfill the "One Another's of the BIBLE", or an act of Pure Sincere LOVE. But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, which purely is by GRACE of GOD.
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
JESUS DID IT ALL BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
First Fruits is a Sacrifice, but it is only waving Grain from a premature harvest, in the early summer.
QUOTE:
What is the Hebrew word for sacrifice?
Best Answer
Sacrifice, as in a burnt offering = Korban (קורבן)
to sacrifice (for one's family, etc.) = viter (ויתר)
Answer:
Korban קרבן
The Hebrew word for "sacrifice" (korban, le-hakriv) is from the same root as "to come near, to approach. . . . to become closely involved in a relationship with someone." For this is meant to be the essence of the experience which the bearer of the sacrifice undergoes. Indeed, it is unfortunate that no word in the English language can adequately render the idea behind the Hebrew word korban. We allow ourselves to use the word "sacrifice" for lack of a better word, but it is a highly unsuccessful attempt at translation; it could even be called unfortunate. The idea of a sacrifice or offering seems to indicate a gift or present; giving up something of value for another's benefit, or going without something of value yourself, for the benefit of that other.
https://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Hebrew_word_for_sacrifice
:END QUOTE.
That is what I mean by the JEWS have a different meaning to the WORD Sacrifice.
In Christianity we call that striving to fulfill the "One Another's of the BIBLE", or an act of Pure Sincere LOVE. But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, which purely is by GRACE of GOD.
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
JESUS DID IT ALL BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
There are still KJV only people that think the KJV is only Authorized Translation of the Bible. Here is a Post that I wrote a verse long time ago. Words in Blue Print are my comments, Black and Fusia come straight out of the 1611 KJV PREFACE:
No offense intended, but it appears to me you have been Led astray by a handful of KJV ONLY zealots who believe they must HAVE Faith in the KJV Bible, no matter how many Errors it leads you into. I have told you the Truth on all subject of KJV was only a Paraphase of 5 older English Versions. You will not listen or even read something that comes from another version, thinking KJV is the Authorized Translation. How come there were at least five other ENGLISH Translations, before the KJV. So how come you are not faithful to one of them ? ? ? You do not even know this, but I was once a KJV believer. I woke up when I first saw what the Translators actually said about their own VERISON. I know some of my words will be Shocking to an actual KJV ONLY BELIEVER. It is my personal Opinion, but that most KJV ONLY believers, have PUT the KJV BIBLE WAY TO HIGH ON THE PEDISTAL, it was only intended to be a Paraphase, UPDATING the Language, the 1611 Translation Team said so.
revising that which hath bene laboured by others, . . . {That is a Paraphrase, and not an actual Translation.}
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? {That is a prescription for replacing a Know Error for Another.}
the Seventy Interpreters, . . . among the Gentiles by written ERRORS preaching . . . {That is more proof that Errors still exist in the KJV.}
the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; {That accounts for the KNOWN ERRORS, but what about UNKNOWN ERRORS.}
. . . the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place. {KNOWN ERRORS, but they were taken from 5 older BIBLE in English, with Known Errors, Checked with the Septuagint with KNOWN ERRORS, and checked with LATIN BIBLE with KNOW ERRORS. OH MY! No wonder why they were in hurry to REVISE, the ORIGINAL 1611 PREFACE. BUT THERE IS MORE.}
For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . . {That certainly is a genuine Paraphrase and not a Genuine Translation out of an original language Bibles.}
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: {That SAME supposed ERROR the 1611 Translation TEAM was accused of, is the SAME ERROR modern KJV ONLY believers have discounted nearly EVERY English Genuine Translation, because it in some places contradicts what they falsely believe the KJV is saying, INSTEAD OF WHAT GOD IS ACTUALLY SAYING.}
Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, . . . but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .
{That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages.}
Now that is only the Negative part of the KJV. YES THE KJV IS THE BEST PARAPHRASED VERSION on the market today.
Yes it is true at one time I was well on the way to becoming a KJV ONLY BELIEVER, but I woke up. Pleas read the ORIGINAL 1611 KJV PREFACE, for yourself.
My favorite Translation today is HCSB, followed by NASB, ESV, NKJV, NRSV, ASV, NIV, NCV, RSV, NJB, and YLT.
I have no problem with using any of them.
KJV ONLY IS A PARAPHASE VERSION, Not a Translation.
No offense intended, but it appears to me you have been Led astray by a handful of KJV ONLY zealots who believe they must HAVE Faith in the KJV Bible, no matter how many Errors it leads you into. I have told you the Truth on all subject of KJV was only a Paraphase of 5 older English Versions. You will not listen or even read something that comes from another version, thinking KJV is the Authorized Translation. How come there were at least five other ENGLISH Translations, before the KJV. So how come you are not faithful to one of them ? ? ? You do not even know this, but I was once a KJV believer. I woke up when I first saw what the Translators actually said about their own VERISON. I know some of my words will be Shocking to an actual KJV ONLY BELIEVER. It is my personal Opinion, but that most KJV ONLY believers, have PUT the KJV BIBLE WAY TO HIGH ON THE PEDISTAL, it was only intended to be a Paraphase, UPDATING the Language, the 1611 Translation Team said so.
revising that which hath bene laboured by others, . . . {That is a Paraphrase, and not an actual Translation.}
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? {That is a prescription for replacing a Know Error for Another.}
the Seventy Interpreters, . . . among the Gentiles by written ERRORS preaching . . . {That is more proof that Errors still exist in the KJV.}
the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; {That accounts for the KNOWN ERRORS, but what about UNKNOWN ERRORS.}
. . . the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place. {KNOWN ERRORS, but they were taken from 5 older BIBLE in English, with Known Errors, Checked with the Septuagint with KNOWN ERRORS, and checked with LATIN BIBLE with KNOW ERRORS. OH MY! No wonder why they were in hurry to REVISE, the ORIGINAL 1611 PREFACE. BUT THERE IS MORE.}
For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . . {That certainly is a genuine Paraphrase and not a Genuine Translation out of an original language Bibles.}
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: {That SAME supposed ERROR the 1611 Translation TEAM was accused of, is the SAME ERROR modern KJV ONLY believers have discounted nearly EVERY English Genuine Translation, because it in some places contradicts what they falsely believe the KJV is saying, INSTEAD OF WHAT GOD IS ACTUALLY SAYING.}
Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, . . . but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .
{That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages.}
Now that is only the Negative part of the KJV. YES THE KJV IS THE BEST PARAPHRASED VERSION on the market today.
Yes it is true at one time I was well on the way to becoming a KJV ONLY BELIEVER, but I woke up. Pleas read the ORIGINAL 1611 KJV PREFACE, for yourself.
My favorite Translation today is HCSB, followed by NASB, ESV, NKJV, NRSV, ASV, NIV, NCV, RSV, NJB, and YLT.
I have no problem with using any of them.
Just in case there is a wooded meadow behind the THRONE in heaven, with the Crystal River flowing threw it, this could be my home:
The main thing that seems to happen in osas v not osas threads is the accusation on the osas supporter they are teaching a license to sin.
I think this comes from a good place in people wanting someone to be faithful to Jesus continually and not slack off.
The thing is though.. how does a believer flee sin and follow Jesus continually, if sin actually has not been completely covered by Him?
This is where once saved always saved is not about teaching a license to sin, but true freedom from sin.
If a believer can lose salvation , they are in a behavioural contract to Jesus that doesn't have an underlying unconditional love. They can't truly flee sin, because they are on a mouse wheel of effort!
A believer can flee sin if they are not in bandage to it. Osas.. is about having this bandage removed by Jesus..so there is no conditional contract of works. It isn't about getting saved and then just doing whatever.
It's the only way a believer can truly flee sin, because they aren't bound to it by a behavioural contract.
John 3:16, 5:24, Roman's 10, 5:8, Titus 3:5.
So before you go to the 'preaching a license to sin' line... think about how someone can truly flee from sin. How can they if they are in a behavioural contract?
I think this comes from a good place in people wanting someone to be faithful to Jesus continually and not slack off.
The thing is though.. how does a believer flee sin and follow Jesus continually, if sin actually has not been completely covered by Him?
This is where once saved always saved is not about teaching a license to sin, but true freedom from sin.
If a believer can lose salvation , they are in a behavioural contract to Jesus that doesn't have an underlying unconditional love. They can't truly flee sin, because they are on a mouse wheel of effort!
A believer can flee sin if they are not in bandage to it. Osas.. is about having this bandage removed by Jesus..so there is no conditional contract of works. It isn't about getting saved and then just doing whatever.
It's the only way a believer can truly flee sin, because they aren't bound to it by a behavioural contract.
John 3:16, 5:24, Roman's 10, 5:8, Titus 3:5.
So before you go to the 'preaching a license to sin' line... think about how someone can truly flee from sin. How can they if they are in a behavioural contract?
Here, I especially like St. John the Apostle's First Epistle. It gives various signs by which we can know we are born again/born of God, and living in the Spirit/walking in Truth. Let's quickly take just 3.
First, whoever believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God is born of God: "5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." (1 Jn 5:1-5)
2nd, when we are born of God, we do not go on sinning, or continuing in sin, according to: "4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." (1 Jn 3:4-6)
Third, the evidence that we truly love God and one another is a mark/sign that we have passed from death to life: "14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death."
God Bless.
First, whoever believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God is born of God: "5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." (1 Jn 5:1-5)
2nd, when we are born of God, we do not go on sinning, or continuing in sin, according to: "4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." (1 Jn 3:4-6)
Third, the evidence that we truly love God and one another is a mark/sign that we have passed from death to life: "14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death."
God Bless.