Not By Works

[Phoneman-777]

Amen! So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Your analogy suggests the existence of a neutral state of salvation where the Christian may stand without bearing any fruit at all for a time...the truth is that there is no spiritual Switzerland.

• The plane not moving forward will plummet to the ground.
• The swimmer who stops treading water will drift with the current over the waterfall.
• THE CHRISTIAN NOT PRODUCING FRUIT IS NO LONGER WALKING TOWARD GOD BUT BACK TO SATAN.

"Faith without works is dead" isn't referring to a faith which has paused it's production of good works - it refers to the OSAS dead faith which says I can cling to Jesus and my bad works of sin, too.

 

[PennEd]

So many times people post 'faith without works is dead ' without any context of what is about.

Through the book of James.. these are Acts of service to God, people demonstrating faith they already were given by God.

James isn't attaching works to getting eternal life in this.

People post that passage here as if they’ve uncovered THE silver bullet verse, that supports the need for works to be saved. And they’re the first, out of 150,000 posts, to put it here.

Wish I had a nickel for every time someone posted that verse here.

 

[mailmandan]

Your analogy suggests the existence of a neutral state of salvation where the Christian may stand without bearing any fruit at all for a time...the truth is that there is no spiritual Switzerland.

• The plane not moving forward will plummet to the ground.
• The swimmer who stops treading water will drift with the current over the waterfall.
• THE CHRISTIAN NOT PRODUCING FRUIT IS NO LONGER WALKING TOWARD GOD BUT BACK TO SATAN.

"Faith without works is dead" isn't referring to a faith which has paused it's production of good works - it refers to the OSAS dead faith which says I can cling to Jesus and my bad works of sin, too.

How did you dream this up? James isn't talking about paused faith or OSAS vs. NOSAS. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

James 2:1-16
Is a warning against showing favoritism.

How many here are guilty of that on both sides?

Many point out James 2:17 and forget what they read before that.

A true Christian faith produces works of love and kindness to others as God works through the believer; but works do not save, can not save, nor do they maintain salvation.

 

[gb9]

the thread that will not die has returned yet again.

 

[Phoneman-777]

How did you dream this up?

You suggested that "faith without works" refers essentially to a saved, heaven-bound, Christian who at the moment isn't producing good works but will at some point in the near future bring them forth, right? If not, kindly disregard the following; if so, please consider:

My response to your suggestion: a faithful Christian CONTINUOUSLY produces good works just as a faithful husband CONTINUOUSLY abstains from an adulterous affair - therefore, "faith without works" refers to only to this:

1) one who claims to have saving faith but has never evidenced it via good works (1 John 2:3-4 KJV)

2) one who once evidenced saving faith via good works (1 John 2:3-4 KJV) but has evicted Jesus from his heart

 

[mailmandan]

You suggested that "faith without works" refers essentially to a saved, heaven-bound, Christian who at the moment isn't producing good works but will at some point in the near future bring them forth, right?

That's not what I suggested at all.

If not, kindly disregard the following; if so, please consider:

I have kindly disregarded the following.

My response to your suggestion: a faithful Christian CONTINUOUSLY produces good works just as a faithful husband CONTINUOUSLY abstains from an adulterous affair - therefore, "faith without works" refers to only to this:

1) one who claims to have saving faith but has never evidenced it via good works (1 John 2:3-4 KJV)

2) one who once evidenced saving faith via good works (1 John 2:3-4 KJV) but has evicted Jesus from his heart

 

[Melach]

still cant believe these people banned the op of this thread. he said nothing wrong read his past posts. soviet chat.

bring back dcontroversal

 

[Magenta]

still cant believe these people banned the op of this thread. he said nothing wrong read his past posts. soviet chat.

bring back dcontroversal

It won't happen <= link

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[wattie]

DC and I have very much the same doctrine. I hope this thread doesn't die.

 

[Magenta]

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[lifetheory]

Lets look at that EXACT scripture according to the AMPLIFIED TRANSLATION

1 John 5 (AMP)
4 For [b]everyone born of God is victorious and overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has conquered and overcome the world—our [continuing, persistent] faith [in Jesus the Son of God].

See. There is the answer.

Wrong again!
Just another horrendous translation that adds words to the text.

John’s assertion, “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,” declares the content and result of Christian faith. The designation, “Whoever believes” (Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων, literally, “everyone believing”), is personal but includes every individual thus characterized; it stresses the universal scope of the fact presented. The present participle denotes that the individual exercises a persistent, continuous faith. The verb, a favorite term with John, means more than intellectual apprehension of a truth or assent to a creed; it involves an active personal committal to the truth believed. Smalley notes that “such (orthodox) faith is virtually synonymous with the ‘confession’ or ‘acknowledgment’ demanded of the true believer according to 2:22-23; 4:2, 15.” It is a faith that intellectually accepts and actively commits itself to the fact “that Jesus is the Christ.” The name “Jesus” involves acknowledgment of His true humanity, a fact denied by Docetic Gnosticism, while “the Christ” refers to Him as “the anointed One,” the Messiah whose coming was announced in the Old Testament. (D. Edmond Hiebert, An Expositional Study of 1 John - Part 9 (1 John 5:1-12), Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990), p. 217; emphasis mine)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

John’s assertion, “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,” declares the content and result of Christian faith. The designation, “Whoever believes” (Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων, literally, “everyone believing”), is personal but includes every individual thus characterized; it stresses the universal scope of the fact presented. The present participle denotes that the individual exercises a persistent, continuous faith.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[wattie]

John’s assertion, “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,” declares the content and result of Christian faith. The designation, “Whoever believes” (Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων, literally, “everyone believing”), is personal but includes every individual thus characterized; it stresses the universal scope of the fact presented. The present participle denotes that the individual exercises a persistent, continuous faith. The verb, a favorite term with John, means more than intellectual apprehension of a truth or assent to a creed; it involves an active personal committal to the truth believed. Smalley notes that “such (orthodox) faith is virtually synonymous with the ‘confession’ or ‘acknowledgment’ demanded of the true believer according to 2:22-23; 4:2, 15.” It is a faith that intellectually accepts and actively commits itself to the fact “that Jesus is the Christ.” The name “Jesus” involves acknowledgment of His true humanity, a fact denied by Docetic Gnosticism, while “the Christ” refers to Him as “the anointed One,” the Messiah whose coming was announced in the Old Testament. (D. Edmond Hiebert, An Expositional Study of 1 John - Part 9 (1 John 5:1-12), Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990), p. 217; emphasis mine)

But if someone isn't displaying a continuous abiding faith... does not always mean they were never saved.

Faith in being saved and delivered eternally, is once and for all, with no mixture of works at all. All God doing the saving and zero percent us.

THE faith after salvation is different. This is where the likes of James chapter two comes in.

The sealed and saved part of a person... their spirit.. cannot and does not sin.. indwelled and preserved by the Holy Spirit.

The flesh part of a person can and does sin.

 

[BillG]

John’s assertion, “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,” declares the content and result of Christian faith. The designation, “Whoever believes” (Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων, literally, “everyone believing”), is personal but includes every individual thus characterized; it stresses the universal scope of the fact presented. The present participle denotes that the individual exercises a persistent, continuous faith. The verb, a favorite term with John, means more than intellectual apprehension of a truth or assent to a creed; it involves an active personal committal to the truth believed. Smalley notes that “such (orthodox) faith is virtually synonymous with the ‘confession’ or ‘acknowledgment’ demanded of the true believer according to 2:22-23; 4:2, 15.” It is a faith that intellectually accepts and actively commits itself to the fact “that Jesus is the Christ.” The name “Jesus” involves acknowledgment of His true humanity, a fact denied by Docetic Gnosticism, while “the Christ” refers to Him as “the anointed One,” the Messiah whose coming was announced in the Old Testament. (D. Edmond Hiebert, An Expositional Study of 1 John - Part 9 (1 John 5:1-12), Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990), p. 217; emphasis mine)

In all honesty your post above is going to be overlooked by many.

Its complicated and not easy to read and understand.

Jesus never made salvation complicated and made it very easy to understand.

if you said the above in a sermon at church it would fall on deaf ears.

 

[TheLearner]

wow this a long thread

 

[gb9]

wow this a long thread

that is why i call it " the thread that will not die".

 

[Magenta]

wow this a long thread

Not just a long thread, but the longest on CC

 

[Magenta]

*Waves @ David*