Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
tribesman said:
Dunno what sort of "calvinism" you refer to here. Had you been read up on it well you'd see that "the calvinism of Calvin" certainly do not entertain any antinomian ideas at all. "Calvinism" has a very different view on the law and its uses than does the arminian OSAS people. They should not be confused. This said, from whatever angle, to divide law and gospel is really the crucial issue here. And, yes, total depravity and human inability (to respond to God's calling or having true faith before regeneration) is also very important.
Click to expand...
Calvinism's "Total Depravity" doctrine is used to "prove" humans don't have "free will choice" because it says humanity is so "totally depraved" that God has to reach down to the "chosen" and unplug their ears and remove their blinders so that they can understand they're chosen for salvation, while the "unchosen" are left as blind, deaf, and totally oblivious to God's presence as is the Pinball Wizard, right or wrong?

Now, here's why that doctrine is stupid: Satan is the most depraved being to ever exist, and grows more depraved by the hour, it seems yet he's still fully able to discern the presence of God, communicate with God, debate with God, and exercise free will choice to disobey God in all things where God allows it....

..........but...........​

.....humans who are light years behind Satan in depravity -- in our knowledge, thinking, and years of experience -- are somehow so "totally depraved" that we can't discern the presence of God, be approached by God, reasoned with by Him, and then offered a choice by Him to either walk with Him or go the other way, unless we are among the "chosen"?

Calvinism is just another form of "Exclusivity Religion" not unlike Luciferian occultism, Catholicism, Eternal Tormentism, etc., all of which say, "I know the path and you don't because you're not worthy, so away with thee, ye profane."
 
CherieR said:
It’s not dead faith. It’s faith that God will keep his promises to save you through Jesus and he will keep you. It takes faith to trust Jesus for salvation. It’s like stepping into the unknown and letting go of control and trusting His heart.

I don’t know of any Christians who really believe in Jesus and just want to sin all the time. Sin causes pain and brokenness
Click to expand...
Assuming you're married, I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied with your husband saying to you, "Hey babe, I hate the idea of cheating on you and hurting you, but when I do, I'll be trusting in your promise "until death do us part."

But, the god of OSAS supposedly settles for such nonsense, right?
 
Phoneman-777 said:
Assuming you're married, I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied with your husband saying to you, "Hey babe, I hate the idea of cheating on you and hurting you, but when I do, I'll be trusting in your promise "until death do us part."

But, the god of OSAS supposedly settles for such nonsense, right?
Click to expand...

I’m actually not married.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eternally-gratefull
Phoneman-777 said:
Assuming you're married, I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied with your husband saying to you, "Hey babe, I hate the idea of cheating on you and hurting you, but when I do, I'll be trusting in your promise "until death do us part."

But, the god of OSAS supposedly settles for such nonsense, right?
Click to expand...

The example is irrelevant. God has promised eternal life to as many as receive Jesus and believe on him. Reading in the Word of God there are promises God will keep his own. God doesn’t lie. I haven’t always believed in eternal security. I came to that conclusion through reading the Bible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eternally-gratefull
Phoneman-777 said:
Calvinism's "Total Depravity" doctrine is used to "prove" humans don't have "free will choice" because it says humanity is so "totally depraved" that God has to reach down to the "chosen" and unplug their ears and remove their blinders so that they can understand they're chosen for salvation, while the "unchosen" are left as blind, deaf, and totally oblivious to God's presence as is the Pinball Wizard, right or wrong?
Click to expand...
You may read Eph.2 (about sinners being dead in their sins) and Rom.9 (where it speaks about God's choices outside man).

Phoneman-777 said:
Now, here's why that doctrine is stupid: Satan is the most depraved being to ever exist, and grows more depraved by the hour, it seems yet he's still fully able to discern the presence of God, communicate with God, debate with God, and exercise free will choice to disobey God in all things where God allows it....

..........but...........​

.....humans who are light years behind Satan in depravity -- in our knowledge, thinking, and years of experience -- are somehow so "totally depraved" that we can't discern the presence of God, be approached by God, reasoned with by Him, and then offered a choice by Him to either walk with Him or go the other way, unless we are among the "chosen"?
Click to expand...
Neither satan nor sinners do have any power of their own. All power and authority is from God. I don't really see the meaning behind comparing satan with men, it isn't really the same thing.

Phoneman-777 said:
Calvinism is just another form of "Exclusivity Religion" not unlike Luciferian occultism, Catholicism, Eternal Tormentism, etc., all of which say, "I know the path and you don't because you're not worthy, so away with thee, ye profane."
Click to expand...
Where do you find exclusivist claims of calvinism? Any source?
 
  • Like
Reactions: posthuman
Phoneman-777 said:
Not explicitly, but certainly implicitly, as I've shown over and over.
Click to expand...

in fact i would go as far as saying that if you do not get asked the question, 'why not go on sinning, so that grace can abound all the more?' -- then you have misrepresented the gospel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CherieR
CherieR said:
The example is irrelevant. God has promised eternal life to as many as receive Jesus and believe on him. Reading in the Word of God there are promises God will keep his own. God doesn’t lie. I haven’t always believed in eternal security. I came to that conclusion through reading the Bible.
Click to expand...
The thing is: can one jump out and in of one's salvation?
 
Phoneman-777 said:
What a distortion of the truth. The problem was not man's inability to keep the law...it was man's inability to keep the law APART FROM THE INDWELLING POWER OF GOD.

Ask any married Christian who thinks "the only thing salvation causes to change is God's opinion of my sin that remains" if she would ever be pleased with the notion that her husband's "I do" doesn't change him, just her opinion of his fornicating ways still in him...but we are to expect God to acquiesce to OSAS?
Click to expand...

What a distortion of the Word of God as well as a distortion of the Law of Moses. You speak of "fornication, sex with your neighbor's wife, etc" a lot. Are you speaking from experience or word of mouth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: posthuman
Guojing said:
From Jesus words in John 3:13, Elijah could not have been to the 3rd heaven.

So your premise 1 is already uncertain.

That verse I quoted from Hebrews 11 already told us Enoch still died, so if he could die, why would you think Elijah did not die?
Click to expand...
"No man ascendeth up to heaven" is in the context of the verses before it which deals with a knowledge of heavenly things. Jesus is saying, "No one ascended to heaven and came back down to tell us about it except Me."
Elijah indeed went to heaven and received his immortal body.
Enoch never died in Hebrews 11.
 
Phoneman-777 said:
Zwingle arrived in the land and began to preach the Protestant Historicist message and the entire country of Scotland converted from Catholicism to Protestantism.

Your wishy washy false gospel doesn't save anyone - it only brings the false security of belief that we may obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.
Click to expand...

It isn't "my" wishy-washy gospel. I read, discern the "Gospel of God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth." I believe His promise of eternal life through salvation by, through and because of Jesus Christ Savior of the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eternally-gratefull and CherieR
CherieR said:
The example is irrelevant. God has promised eternal life to as many as receive Jesus and believe on him. Reading in the Word of God there are promises God will keep his own. God doesn’t lie. I haven’t always believed in eternal security. I came to that conclusion through reading the Bible.
Click to expand...
As David said wherever I go. I can’t hide from you because there you are. And YOU HOLD ONTO ME
 
  • Like
Reactions: CherieR and star
Phoneman-777 said:
Your wishy washy false gospel doesn't save anyone
Click to expand...

a gospel of 'you save yourself and/or keep yourself saved' certainly doesn't save anyone.
a gospel of 'you can't depend on God to keep you' and 'God doesn't carry the lost sheep home on His shoulder' doesn't save anyone.
a gospel of 'eternal life is temporary' doesn't save anyone.
a gospel depending on human will, desire and effort is no gospel at all.


Unless the Lord builds the house,​
they labor in vain who build it.​
Unless the Lord guards the city,​
the watchman stays awake in vain.
(Psalm 127:1)​
 
  • Like
Reactions: star, Rosemaryx and CherieR
posthuman said:
Not as you have shown, but as you have accused. And Paul was accused of the very same thing - why?
Click to expand...
Proven accusations, unlike those which were against Paul.

There many reasons why OSAS is not Biblical, such as the Unmerciful Servant who was totally forgiven, but his latter end wound up worse than the beginning....so why adhere to such a doctrine, if not to excuse "Christian" iniquity, the workers of which Jesus will command to depart from Him?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back