Not By Works

[Phoneman-777]

1 John 3:1-3. But sanctification is a progressive work of the Spirit.

Wow, now that's a word we seldom hear in here! Much appreciated

 

[OIC1965]

Amen, how can anyone who loves Jesus even think about indulging iniquity...or if they do, how can they not hate themselves afterward and not wet their pillow with their tears apologizing to God and begging Him for power to resist the next time Satan comes around with the same temptation?

Christians can and may fall into sin, but we must not remain there. One of the tricks of the enemy is to make you doubt your salvation because of what your struggle with sin in order to keep you there. I have experienced this.

 

[CherieR]

Example? I can't imagine anyone looking at Jesus on the Cross and still wanting to retain their own pride...like the Christian who withholds his money from the collection plate, only to later see a homeless man give a stranger some money.

The Cross is something that when gazed upon should compel us to lay our pride in the dust.

If a person afraid of God’s wrath it doesn’t mean they’re not prideful. Pride can show up in conversations with people when instead of showing love one reacts in hurtful words because their pride was hurt by the other person. For example if someone says to another “ you’re lazy” and the other replies “ well you’re a jerk” Conflict often arises from pride and is fuel for more conflict.

I agree with you that looking to the cross and Jesus sacrifice can help one be more humble. It’s something we should do more of and be grateful to him.

 

[OIC1965]

Exactly...it's talking about habitual, known, deliberate sin, not the spur of the moment, moment of weakness type, for which there is forgiveness proffered.

Unfortunately, today, many put "sin" under one umbrella, see themselves making mistakes due to character flaws which have not yet been healed by the Holy Spirit, and then throw up their hands and say, "Well, nobody can keep the law, so let's invent OSAS so that we can still go to heaven."

Exactly...it's talking about habitual, known, deliberate sin, not the spur of the moment, moment of weakness type, for which there is forgiveness proffered.

Unfortunately, today, many put "sin" under one umbrella, see themselves making mistakes due to character flaws which have not yet been healed by the Holy Spirit, and then throw up their hands and say, "Well, nobody can keep the law, so let's invent OSAS so that we can still go to heaven."

No one that I know of preaches holiness and sanctification better than the Puritan writers did. Most who teach security teach the necessity of holiness of life, word, and thought. And fervent evangelism. But just not sinless perfection.

 

[CherieR]

Example? I can't imagine anyone looking at Jesus on the Cross and still wanting to retain their own pride...like the Christian who withholds his money from the collection plate, only to later see a homeless man give a stranger some money.

The Cross is something that when gazed upon should compel us to lay our pride in the dust.

There were people at the cross who looked with pride. They did not see their own sin like they ought and the Savior in front of their eyes.

“He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. “

Matthew 27:42 KJV

 

[Guojing]

There are a few exceptions, like Elijah and Moses, both of which appeared to Jesus in their immortal bodies (as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was temporarily glorified and no one can stand in the presence of a glorified Jesus in our present corruptible bodies).

But, yes, the rule is that OT saints like David and Job and Samuel and Josiah, etc., are yet asleep awaiting the Resurrection of the Just.

Peter James and John were also at the presence of the transfigured Jesus so your evidence about the need for immortal bodies cannot be correct.

Elijah and Moses were temporary resurrected for that moment, but returned to their graves after that event, it was the same temporary event that saw many OT saints resurrected when Christ died at the cross.

 

[Guojing]

Obedience then and now is a byproduct of faith

Works should follow salvation now yes, but it has nothing to do with salvation in the Body of Christ now (Romans 4:5)

 

[Guojing]

Scripture?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[VCO]

If you believe in Calvinism and OSAS and you deny what I say about it, you're just delusional, because what I say FULLY lines up with what you say, I just stretch out your nonsense to its logical conclusion.

OSAS most definitely is a license to commit sin which grants immunity from the same punishment the unlicensed will suffer...if not, please explain.

YOU HAVE SWALLOWED a big bunch of False Ideas about OSAS, and I have told you that NUMEROUS TIMES.

So you pastor does not know what he is talking about, it you got it from the pulpit.

I have been attending OSAS CHURCHES, at least NINE of them, and NOT ONE OF THEM even comes close to teaching a license to commit sin. THAT IS PURE HOGWASH, out of your imagination.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Christians can and may fall into sin, but we must not remain there. One of the tricks of the enemy is to make you doubt your salvation because of what your struggle with sin in order to keep you there. I have experienced this.

True...we should not doubt our salvation any more than a child learning to walk should doubt the love of his father because he stumbles. Presumptuous sin, however, is a totally different ballgame, where different rules apply: if you play that game, you are guaranteed to lose...................................eternal life.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No one that I know of preaches holiness and sanctification better than the Puritan writers did. Most who teach security teach the necessity of holiness of life, word, and thought. And fervent evangelism. But just not sinless perfection.

I don't believe the Bible teaches "sinless perfection", but that it teaches "reckoned perfection" -- that God "reckons us perfect" though we be deficient as we grow in grace. In the sight of God, our deficiencies are made up for in Christ.

Of course, the OSAS crowd wants this provision to cover iniquity - where a lack of skill isn't the issue, but it is purely a lack of will to do the right thing.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Peter James and John were also at the presence of the transfigured Jesus so your evidence about the need for immortal bodies cannot be correct.

Elijah and Moses were temporary resurrected for that moment, but returned to their graves after that event, it was the same temporary event that saw many OT saints resurrected when Christ died at the cross.

Elijah never died. And we can safely infer that Moses was resurrected, despite Satan's protests, because he was there in the Mount. As for a temporary resurrection, not sure if I can accept that, seeing there's no text to support it. I can see your point about Peter James and John, but seeing that God Himself said, "No man can see My face and live", perhaps God made some provision for them.

What we do know is that all five men were alive in the presence of Jesus.

 

[Phoneman-777]

YOU HAVE SWALLOWED a big bunch of False Ideas about OSAS, and I have told you that NUMEROUS TIMES.

So you pastor does not know what he is talking about, it you got it from the pulpit.

I have been attending OSAS CHURCHES, at least NINE of them, and NOT ONE OF THEM even comes close to teaching a license to commit sin. THAT IS PURE HOGWASH, out of your imagination.

If OSAS is not a license to commit sin, then why do you guys teach that the Christian can't lose his salvation no matter how much he sins?

OSAS is a means to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. It cannot be.

 

[Guojing]

Elijah never died. And we can safely infer that Moses was resurrected, despite Satan's protests, because he was there in the Mount. As for a temporary resurrection, not sure if I can accept that, seeing there's no text to support it. I can see your point about Peter James and John, but seeing that God Himself said, "No man can see My face and live", perhaps God made some provision for them.

What we do know is that all five men were alive in the presence of Jesus.

Elijah was taken up to the 1st heaven before his death, yes.

But it does not mean he did not return to Earth and die after that. II Chronicles 21:12-15 has an interesting account of a letter written by Elijah after his return to Earth.

Otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting himself in John 3:13, a verse I quoted already to another here.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The author of Hebrews made it clear for people like Enoch and Elijah in chapter 11.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[tribesman]

... and Calvinism says, well, so many crazy things: like we are so totally depraved that we can't even look in God's direction except that He first cleans us up a little...

Dunno what sort of "calvinism" you refer to here. Had you been read up on it well you'd see that "the calvinism of Calvin" certainly do not entertain any antinomian ideas at all. "Calvinism" has a very different view on the law and its uses than does the arminian OSAS people. They should not be confused. This said, from whatever angle, to divide law and gospel is really the crucial issue here. And, yes, total depravity and human inability (to respond to God's calling or having true faith before regeneration) is also very important.

 

[CherieR]

If OSAS is not a license to commit sin, then why do you guys teach that the Christian can't lose his salvation no matter how much he sins?

OSAS is a means to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. It cannot be.

It’s not dead faith. It’s faith that God will keep his promises to save you through Jesus and he will keep you. It takes faith to trust Jesus for salvation. It’s like stepping into the unknown and letting go of control and trusting His heart.

I don’t know of any Christians who really believe in Jesus and just want to sin all the time. Sin causes pain and brokenness

 

[tribesman]

*sighs* Too many men set themselves at God's seat and make their judgments on who are saved and who are not saved. In the end, however, God will be that judge and His judgment is RIGHTEOUS AND JUST.

 

[OIC1965]

Works should follow salvation now yes, but it has nothing to do with salvation in the Body of Christ now (Romans 4:5)

If justification was through works in the OT, they would have all perished.

 

[OIC1965]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

So when Steven was stoned, did his spirit go to heaven? Because the first verse you quoted is talking about Jesus’ ascension, right?

 

[tribesman]

If justification was through works in the OT, they would have all perished.

You are on deaf ears.