Not By Works

[Magenta]

So We’re born again, sin and die, born again, sin and die, born again.....?

The seed some receive must not be incorruptible

 

[star]

Totally agree.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

My mother threw me out when I was 14.
I was fostered by a Christian family whom I knew from the Boys Brigade.

Not long after the fostership the foster father started to sexually abuse me.

Won't go into the details but I say what my mum did was evil and what my foster did was evil and as you can imagine this led to my life being messed up big time which had consequences for me as result.

It took God 30 years+ to work good.

I was at my foster father's death bead and sorted out his estate.
My mum and I have been reconciled

So now what was an evil act towards me God has turned into good.

As a result he his now using me to walk with others that I walked in and suffered.

I came to realise that God started to work good when I was willing to forgive. When I was the process of starting to work good began. It was a long long process.

For me the key is forgiveness.
One of my favourite quotes I read.

"To forgive is to set the prisoner free, only to realise the prisoner was you"

Makes me very sad that that when people quote v28 leave it at that.
It comes across as saying God will make what happened to you good but infact you cannot make it good, God does not make evil good but uses the evil that happened to us good for us.

As we see in

Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

As I said above forgiveness is the key, this leads to healing to release in order to

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Those who did evil against me their sins were forgiven on the cross.
Who am I not forgive?

I believe in forgiveness as well and that it sets our hearts and minds free from the burden of the past. It does not mean those evil actions were blessed with our forgiveness. It means our souls are set free and we no longer are prisoners to such evilness. God will sort it all out. I've had some forgiveness to do myself from my teenage and young adult years. It is very difficult to come to the point of forgiveness and sometimes for me at least that forgiveness doesn't wipe away the ugly scars I have been left with. Sometimes just an incident out of nowhere will bring back memories I have done my best to rid myself from.

But when we think of the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and what He has forgiven this sinful world for, our part in forgiveness is minute compared to His.

 

[star]

I struggled for years believing that I had to do "works" to stay saved. It literally "wore me out." Then as I studied more and more of scripture, I came to realize there would never be enough "works" for me to keep my salvation and that my salvation was the ultimate gift from God the Creator through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

I believe in forgiveness as well and that it sets our hearts and minds free from the burden of the past. It does not mean those evil actions were blessed with our forgiveness. It means our souls are set free and we no longer are prisoners to such evilness. God will sort it all out. I've had some forgiveness to do myself from my teenage and young adult years. It is very difficult to come to the point of forgiveness and sometimes for me at least that forgiveness doesn't wipe away the ugly scars I have been left with. Sometimes just an incident out of nowhere will bring back memories I have done my best to rid myself from.

But when we think of the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and what He has forgiven this sinful world for, our part in forgiveness is minute compared to His.

Star! Such a wonderful testimony to the grace and mercy of our loving Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I think I know exactly what you mean, for there were things I could not forgive myself for, but God knew me way better than I knew myself, and imparted to me that He completely understood how and why I had ended up in such a broken and hopeless state, and that He loved me any ways and forgave me those things even I could not forgive myself. I felt so unworthy... but knowing His unconditional love and forgiveness was something I treasured in my heart even as I was still a non-believer, for that experience of the infilling of His Spirit preceded my conversion by many years. God is long suffering towards us, not wishing that any should perish, and I am so grateful that He allowed me to survive the stupidity of my youth

 

[VCO]

One point of disagreement. The cleansing of our heart/spirit is the only way our actions can truly change, and you can only walk right before God if your heart is clean

Sanctification of life begins in the heart. Therefore sanctification of life is primarily a matter of heart, not of body.

The heart is were the Human Spirit resides.

That Happens instantly, when we FIRST GENUINELY BELIEVE, which is SALVATION. Reference John 3:6.

John 3:6 (NIV)
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Sanctification is disciplining to body to work out what is already in the HEART. In other words:

Ephesians 5:1-2 (HCSB)
1 Therefore, be imitators of God, as dearly loved children.
2 And walk in love, as the Messiah also loved us and gave Himself for us, a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God.

Colossians 2:6 (NKJV)
6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

1 Thessalonians 4:1 (HCSB)
1 Finally then, brothers, we ask and encourage you in the Lord Jesus, that as you have received from us how you must walk and please God—as you are doing—do so even more.

1 John 1:7 (HCSB)
7 But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:6 (HCSB)
6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.


Sanctification is OUR WALK, and it will take a LIFE TIME TO LEARN TO BE LIKE HIM.

 

[OIC1965]

The heart is were the Human Spirit resides.

That Happens instantly, when we FIRST GENUINELY BELIEVE, which is SALVATION. Reference John 3:6.

John 3:6 (NIV)
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Sanctification is disciplining to body to work out what is already in the HEART. In other words:

Ephesians 5:1-2 (HCSB)
1 Therefore, be imitators of God, as dearly loved children.
2 And walk in love, as the Messiah also loved us and gave Himself for us, a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God.

Colossians 2:6 (NKJV)
6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

1 Thessalonians 4:1 (HCSB)
1 Finally then, brothers, we ask and encourage you in the Lord Jesus, that as you have received from us how you must walk and please God—as you are doing—do so even more.

1 John 1:7 (HCSB)
7 But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:6 (HCSB)
6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.


Sanctification is OUR WALK, and it will take a LIFE TIME TO LEARN TO BE LIKE HIM.

Yes, the Holy Spirit dwells in our heart, which has been purified by faith and cleansed by the blood. As we submit more and more to the Spirit, yielding to His influence, our walk becomes progressively more Christlike.

Progressive sanctification.

 

[OIC1965]

Or a third way

You struggled with a few sins. Which we all do. If we say we have no sin we are deceived

Living in sin would be like before were were saved. We did nothing righteous not one thing

We all have our sin issue. Some is anger some pride some lack of faith some road rage etc etc.

This is a great post. Thanks.

 

[OIC1965]

The issue for me is not the multiple sins.

The issue is WHY.

There is a cause of the affect.

Get to the root of the cause then the affect should subside.

Very true. I found that Sins of the Spirit ( pride, unbelief, legalism, self righteousness, unforgiveness, bitterness, ) lead to sins of the body (fornication, adultery, pharmakia, etc).

 

[oyster67]

You can not resolve this passage with a person who knew God and is now sinning (habitually) as you claim they can

I already did and yes they can. We do not need to resolve the Word. It resolves itself if we will just take it at face value instead of trying to run to the Greek or something when we don't like what it plainly and clearly tells us in English.

 

[oyster67]

No. He left home because he did
Not think he needed dads help
Anymore

Again John said whoever wins has
Never seen God or known him whoever is born if God can’t sin because his spirit is in him

You can not resolve this passage with a person who knew God and is now sinning (habitually) as you claim they can

Luke
15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

 

[oyster67]

The prodical does not need to repent because he has not lost faith in Jesus.

He does because he has.

 

[oyster67]

The truth is for me is that works do not save.

I completely agree. Living for Jesus is not work and salvation is not maintained by works. Remaining in Christ is not grievous. It is not grievous for a wife to remain faithful to a perfect Husband. This is the wonderful relationship that we are privileged to live within. The Prodigal Son went way out of His way to walk out on his loving family, and when He came back, he brought a penitent heart with Him. I am sorry if anybody thinks that this is not the correct thread to place this post in.

 

[oyster67]

So We’re born again, sin and die, born again, sin and die, born again.....?

Once you die, your fate is sealed. We were discussing a man who left his home and lived a sinful lifestyle for 10 years without repentance. Would he have gone to hell had He died in his sin? Yes he would have. Fortunately, he saw the light before it was too late and realized that he needed to repent and go home. We do not have to run to the Greek to understand the story of the Prodigal Son.

Luke
15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I already did and yes they can. We do not need to resolve the Word. It resolves itself if we will just take it at face value instead of trying to run to the Greek or something when we don't like what it plainly and clearly tells us in English.

ok, so John is a liar!

you do realise he he wrote much of the NT, and if lied in these passages..

1 John 3: 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

i mean if John lied here, we can not trust anything he wrote

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luke
15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

It does not mean he left to do that

and even if he did

HE WAS STILL HIS FATHERS SON! He was never kicked out of the family like you claim we would be

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He does because he has.

Nope

i never lost faith In Jesus concerning my salvation

maybe you can not understand this, but I speak from experience and from the experience of many who have stumbled the same way,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I completely agree.

how can you say this? You are arguing that if we do not do the work of remaining in Christ, and the work of repenting after We walk in sin, we will end up losing salvation,

Living for Jesus is not work and salvation is not maintained by works. Remaining in Christ is not grievous. It is not grievous for a wife to remain faithful to a perfect Husband. This is the wonderful relationship that we are privileged to live within. The Prodigal Son went way out of His way to walk out on his loving family, and when He came back, he brought a penitent heart with Him. I am sorry if anybody thinks that this is not the correct thread to place this post in.

then we are back under law. We must strive (work) to maintain our walk a d live for Jesus, if we do not our salvation is lost,

no different than living under law. Only the law required perfection, so you are giving your self an excuse to commit sin as long as it is not beyond some guideline, and I assume you think some personal sins are an automatic out?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once you die, your fate is sealed. We were discussing a man who left his home and lived a sinful lifestyle for 10 years without repentance. Would he have gone to hell had He died in his sin? Yes he would have. Fortunately, he saw the light before it was too late and realized that he needed to repent and go home. We do not have to run to the Greek to understand the story of the Prodigal Son.

Luke
15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

So like @PennEd said, he died (spiritually) because of sin, then was born, then Died again because of sin, then was born again, then died again because of sin..

seems like you agreed with him...

 

[VCO]

ok, so John is a liar!

you do realise he he wrote much of the NT, and if lied in these passages..

1 John 3: 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

i mean if John lied here, we can not trust anything he wrote

And the definitive answer is in the TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH. Greek has 6 primary Verb Tenses, whereas we only have in English 3 primary Verb Tenses. That only translates that way, because ENGLISH doesn't have the CORRECT Verb tense. What is really implies, is a Lifestyle of habitually SINNING. That is the CORRECT way of reading it.

English is one of the poorest languages you could translate the BIBLE into. Personally I think they should have added the other Verb Tenses so that we could have translated the BIBLE Accurately.

 

[PennEd]

Once you die, your fate is sealed. We were discussing a man who left his home and lived a sinful lifestyle for 10 years without repentance. Would he have gone to hell had He died in his sin? Yes he would have. Fortunately, he saw the light before it was too late and realized that he needed to repent and go home. We do not have to run to the Greek to understand the story of the Prodigal Son.

Luke
15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

I like you Mr Oyster. I think you are very wrong in your belief that one of God’s born again Children can be lost.

But you do very well in respectfully, and even lovingly, debating those of us who believe we can never be tossed out, or leave God’s family.

Definitely something we can emulate.