Not By Works

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preacher4truth said:
@eternally-gratefully, I am waiting for you to address all this:
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Thats funny,

I been waiting for you to answer my question about adam, and its been how long? And you you really think I should answer yours?

To show you I am not afraid. Lets go to the biginning. By using your origional quote. and I will rephrase my answer


preacher4truth said:
Yep. Grace isn't owed or it isn't grace, and isn't merited by any action of man God "foresaw."

People put demands on God that he must meet to be considered fair, by mortal man. Romans 9:19-20 deal with this.
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Remembering that you think we do this when we claim God is not fair unless he does a certain thing.

so I ask

what people?

this is open ended?

People in here? if so Who? Because I see no one putting anything on God here

If not in here?

Who?
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Responding by faith is the evidence of salvation, not the cause. That’s what we believe and the Bible avers.
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Amen....because we have received the Holy Spirit into our hearts...faith is activated Right?

We have spiritual knowledge from God...who has manifested into our hearts?...the manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

He recognises us as his children?
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Our life comes from Him, both physical and spiritual. He is what sustains our lives pre and post salvation. That’s why I believe Adam, even while sinless, still needed God‘s grace. The day we believe we don’t need it, we are in BIG TIME trouble. I need His grace every second of my life. :)
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explain how adam, in a sinless state, Alive to god. needed grace?

What did he need to have that he did not earn?
 
jackrosie said:
Amen....because we have received the Holy Spirit into our hearts...faith is activated Right?

We have spiritual knowledge from God...who has manifested into our hearts?...the manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

He recognises us as his children?
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The Holy Spirit does His part first. Then, and only then, can we do ours. Repent and believe. That’s how ppl are saved. Notice that both of those, repentance and faith(believe in the gospel{Mark 1:15}) are both gifts of God. God, through the Spirit, comes in and regenerates the lost. This entails a new heart given[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26], their ears and eyes are opened(was blind but now I see rings ever true in the song Amazing Grace, written by a Calvinist, btw), faith and repentance are given, and they are saved. The reason why any are saved is because of “But God...” found in Eph. 2:5a.
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
The Holy Spirit does His part first. Then, and only then, can we do ours. Repent and believe. That’s how ppl are saved. Notice that both of those, repentance and faith(believe in the gospel{Mark 1:15}) are both gifts of God. God, through the Spirit, comes in and regenerates the lost. This entails a new heart given[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26], their ears and eyes are opened(was blind but now I see rings ever true in the song Amazing Grace, written by a Calvinist, btw), faith and repentance are given, and they are saved. The reason why any are saved is because of “But God...” found in Eph. 2:5a.
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Amen.....when I was saved...I saw everything in a different light..God’s light.....my ears are more sensitive as are my eyes that see more clearly..probably not biblical..but that’s my personal testimony.

The birds that sing I am much more sensitive to......free from that horrible sin i was in.oh how I Praise God for that.....I often cry for what Jesus did for me!.....a remarkable man.....
 
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mailmandan said:
This explains why I don't understand the logic of election as taught in Calvinism. Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not turning grace into merit. Salvation by works would be merit -- ..and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. There is no merit in receiving a free gift through faith. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) It's a choice. No merit for man and Christ gets all the merit for salvation. We either accept the free gift of eternal life or reject it.
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Hey Dan, although I believe Salvation is a gift, the verse specifically says that it’s the FAITH to believe, that is the gift.

I cannot see any getting around that and the implications of it.
 
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PennEd said:
Hey Dan, although I believe Salvation is a gift, the verse specifically says that it’s the FAITH to believe, that is the gift.

I cannot see any getting around that and the implications of it.
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Grace is not bringing someone to a decision. It’s bringing them to salvation. That’s what they’re teaching on here. Grace gives them the choice to either accept or reject the gift of faith. The unregenerate don’t need assistance to reject God and His gifts. That’s built in them already from the fall.
 
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jackrosie said:
Thank you..it’s taken a while for me to be able to do that.....but feel safe to do so...without fear of being attacked.

Thanks to oncefallen warning.....I needed that warning also because I know I had been very rude to you and others on here.

I feel much safer now to discuss and ask questions.....x
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just remember to always take @Sackcloth-N-Ashes advice and study the word and compair what anyone says with scripture. And never be afraid to ask a question. As an old instructor of mine used to say. The only dumb question is the one that is not asked
 
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In order to receive that free gift of salvation, I did make a "choice" to accept it and to "believe" in the fact that gift gave me eternal life. God does not make us accept His plan of salavation. God wants us to come to Him, accept His gift and His plan of our "own" free will. My choice was acting on my freedom of choice. It was not a "works" on my part but a decision. Choice, decision. Thank you Lord for not making us puppets but giving us the ability to choose. Who wants a relationship with anyone if they are "made" to do?
 
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preacher4truth said:
He is speaking of the regenerate in Christ, not the world at large. :)
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possibly, I'm not sure. but Jews (Israelites) were taught to fear God and 'do right' - to keep the Commandments. maybe the Fear of God and a training in right behavior (or a natural inclination even to right behavior) helps us understand the things of God (of righteousness -God is Righteous) and naturally then God welcomes us.


"... draw near to God and He will draw near to you."

Psalm 145:18
The LORD is near to all who call on Him, to all who call out to Him in truth.

Isaiah 66:2
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Deuteronomy 4:7
For what nation is so great as to have a god as near to them as the LORD our God is to us whenever we call on Him?

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
just remember to always take @Sackcloth-N-Ashes advice and study the word and compair what anyone says with scripture. And never be afraid to ask a question. As an old instructor of mine used to say. The only dumb question is the one that is not asked
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Thank you bro....any question I have I will ask you,sackcloth,plus others.

Even if I sound dumb..it doesn’t bother me....I wish I had been like that at school....I was to dumb to ask...because I was in fear of what others thought of me.

Not now...so watch out I will be firing questions at you.xx.

Love you Bro......I have so much to learn.....
 
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star said:
In order to receive that free gift of salvation, I did make a "choice" to accept it and to "believe" in the fact that gift gave me eternal life. God does not make us accept His plan of salavation. God wants us to come to Him, accept His gift and His plan of our "own" free will. My choice was acting on my freedom of choice. It was not a "works" on my part but a decision. Choice, decision. Thank you Lord for not making us puppets but giving us the ability to choose. Who wants a relationship with anyone if they are "made" to do?
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God wants us to come to Him? Then what about Matthew 18:12-14 where it shows He actively pursues His lost sheep?

Also, let’s delve into a passage, shall we?

”Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”[Matthew 11:28-30] Notice who is being addressed here. It’s not all mankind indiscriminately, but those who are weary and heavy-laden. The lost are not in this shape. In fact, they boast of their sin. They aren’t weary and heavy-ladened in their fallen state.

Prior to this, the Christ said “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.[Matthew 25-27] The Father was well pleased to have hidden things from certain ppl and revealed them to others. This is well-pleasing in His sight. It was right after the Christ said nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him that He said “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden...” These who are in that condition are those who God reveals Himself to.

Thats why ppl come to Him. He draws them and in this drawing reveals Himself to them.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Grace is not bringing someone to a decision. It’s bringing them to salvation. That’s what they’re teaching on here. Grace gives them the choice to either accept or reject the gift of faith. The unregenerate don’t need assistance to reject God and His gifts. That’s built in them already from the fall.
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Grace gives them the choice to either accept or reject the gift of faith.
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No one has stated this

It is not grace that gives us the choice.

It is that grace is resistible.

Why did Jesus lament over Jerusalem?

They had Jesus "full of grace and truth" in their midst and yet they resisted Him?

Why did God not compel, place the effectual call on His own chosen people?

Your whole dogma of effectual calling, irresistible grace raises so many unanswerable questions.
 
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PennEd said:
I would like to take another go at this.
Irresistible Grace to me means God conceived, knit us, and birthed us, as a new creation in Christ.

If we look at our natural conception and birth, we see we had absolutely no control over it. God did. Our parents did. And then our moms did.

Why would we think that we had any control over our Spiritual conception and birth?

Especially since John specifically tells us our Spiritual birth is entirely of Him. Both as the procuring factor, and the ultimate fulfillment.
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I see what your saying

But I do not see how someone choosing to have faith in Christ is him birthing himself. That is the issue we are getting at here

Using this example

You have some being born, then God grants them grace and they saved

and others never being born. and never offered grace

well the ones who were never born or offered grace spend eternity in hell.

This is the problem which bothers people
 
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