Not By Works

[Sagart]

When Jesus said...."IT IS FINISHED" <- a legally binding accounting term.....PAID IN FULL

HIS BLOOD continually CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN and when GOD LOOKS AT ME.....he sees me through the blood of his SON and eternally JUSTIFIED!

God is NOT a blind fool! He sees every sin that Christians commit! Indeed, if He did not see them, how would He know to chastise Christians when they sin?

Hebrews 12:1. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
2. looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
4. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5. And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?— “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
6. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8. If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10. For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
13. and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. (RSV)

 

[jackrosie]

God is NOT a blind fool! He sees every sin that Christians commit! Indeed, if He did not see them, how would He know to chastise Christians when they sin?

Hebrews 12:1. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
2. looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
4. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5. And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?— “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
6. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8. If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10. For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
13. and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. (RSV)

Why did Jesus die?

Didn’t he take all of mankind’s sin?

We are cleansed of sin?

He chastises us when we are disobedient?

How can the Holy Spirit live in our hearts..if we still have sin in them?

He can’t?

He cleansed my heart of all sin when entering my spirit..I became born again....a child of God has no sin in their heart.

 

[Sagart]

You obviously do not grasp....

Having obtained ETERNAL redemption for them

HE HATH perfected FOREVER those who he sanctified

I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE

The gifts and calling of GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE

WE ARE kept by the POWER OF GOD THROUGH THE FAITH he begins, finishes and completes in us

I WILL never leave or forsake thee

I will LOSE NOTHING

We are saved to the uttermost

Where sin abounds, Grace abounds the more

Sealed unto the day of redemption

God chastens ONLY SONS <-why?

I am pursaded that he will keep that which I commited unto HIM AGAINST THAT DAY

AND ON AND OJ AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

It must be tragic to serve such a weak, inept god with a small g that NEEDS our help to finish WHAT HE PROMISED TO DO HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should we tear 2 Peter out of our Bibles and flush the pages down our toilet? And how about the very many pages in our Bible that include the following Scriptures?

Apostasy​

Described

Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12

Caused by persecution

Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13

Caused by worldliness

2Ti_4:10

Guilt and punishment of

Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22

Cautions against

Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17

Shall abound in the latter days

Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3

See Antichrist

Unclassified scriptures relating to

General references

Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6

See Backsliders; Reprobacy

Instances of:

Israelites

Ex 32; Num 14

Saul

1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18

Amaziah

2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27

Disciples

Joh_6:66

Judas

Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18

Hymenaeus and Alexander

1Ti_1:19-20

Phygellus and Hermogenes

2Ti_1:15

See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel

(From Nave’s Topical Bible)

 

[Sagart]

No, @Sagart - these that Peter speaks of followed Christ for self-promoting reasons, they were given the gospel but never received it by FAITH - they received by their FLESH for selfish gain that's why they are still "dogs" and "swine" returning to their own vomit and mire.

They NEVER had salvation to lose.

If they had been truly saved, they would be referred to as "prodigal sons/daughters" or lost sheep.

Where in the Bible does it say that “these that Peter speaks of followed Christ for self-promoting reasons, they were given the gospel but never received it by FAITH - they received by their FLESH for selfish gain that's why they are still "dogs" and "swine" returning to their own vomit and mire.”? Moreover, Peter does not tell us that they are still dogs and swine—he tells us that they were dogs and swine, but they were washed (in the blood of Christ) only to return to the mire.

 

[Sagart]

Irrevocable too BOOT!!

Very cute! lol! But, I'm not buying what you're selling......

All a cute little washed piggy can do is return to her mud puddle because her nature never changed - she was never born again into the spiritual nature of Christ.

Of courser she was! If she were not—Peter’s words would be pointless.

 

[Sagart]

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:29 (HCSB)
29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. (What does irrevocable mean to you?)

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Romans 5:15 (ESV)
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.


Doesn't it BOTHER you that with the statement you just POSTED, Gifts can certainly be lost, you just contradicted these verses and a whole host of other verses ? ? ?

Please read the verses that you have posted here. NONE of them either says or suggests that any gift cannot be lost.

 

[Sagart]

I am sorry if I took your wording wrong , it just grieves me so deeply that anyone can even think they can lose their gift of Salvation...
I can understand a babe in Christ thinking this way because that is what I thought , until God showed me otherwise , that I was reading Scripture wrong , but I cannot understand those who say they are walking with our Lord for so many years , and still believe they can lose our Lords gift of life to us , it just does not make sense to me...
...xox...

Up until the 16th century, all Christians believed in the conditional security of the believer. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine (perseverance of the saints, the earliest of the various eternal security doctrines) that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.

Which of the various eternal security doctrines taught by Christians today do you believe all Ba Christians ptists should believe in? Should they believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of the “perseverance of the saints,’ or the much more popular and more recent doctrine of the “preservation of the saints,” or in one of the various types of millennial exclusionism—forms of eternal security that sprung up in the mid 1800’s and continue to be taught today in which it is taught that all Christians will eventually go to heaven, but that that Christians who have sin in their lives will spend a future 1,000 years in Protestant Purgatory, or, even worse, in hell (millennial-exclusion Christian teachers differ on that issue)?

 

[jackrosie]

A born again believes in the truth....being they will always be.....OSAS......only a born again will go to heaven.

I believe what “GOD” testified to my spirit.......so I’m off to Heaven where I will see God in his full glory...my room is up there waiting.....,and no one can take away what God gave me......in Jesus Name......AMEN!

 

[Sagart]

Those verses are dealing with confirmed apostates. Hebrews 6 and 10 is warning of the risk of apostasy. Apostates are not sons BTW. They are enemies of the Cross.

Apostates are people who had been Christians but who have taken a stand against Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Should we tear 2 Peter out of our Bibles and flush the pages down our toilet? And how about the very many pages in our Bible that include the following Scriptures?

Apostasy​

Described

Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12

Caused by persecution

Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13

Caused by worldliness

2Ti_4:10

Guilt and punishment of

Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22

Cautions against

Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17

Shall abound in the latter days

Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3

See Antichrist

Unclassified scriptures relating to

General references

Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6

See Backsliders; Reprobacy

Instances of:

Israelites

Ex 32; Num 14

Saul

1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18

Amaziah

2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27

Disciples

Joh_6:66

Judas

Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18

Hymenaeus and Alexander

1Ti_1:19-20

Phygellus and Hermogenes

2Ti_1:15

See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel

(From Nave’s Topical Bible)

Nothing you quoted = loss of salvation!

Geez man....anyone can google verses on any subject and get pages of idiocy out of context!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of courser she was! If she were not—Peter’s words would be pointless.

You did not understand peter at all

he was explaining a fact that false teachers like these never came to faith, they were dogs, and were never changed,it’s why they returned to their true nature because they were not changed

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where in the Bible does it say that “these that Peter speaks of followed Christ for self-promoting reasons, they were given the gospel but never received it by FAITH - they received by their FLESH for selfish gain that's why they are still "dogs" and "swine" returning to their own vomit and mire.”? Moreover, Peter does not tell us that they are still dogs and swine—he tells us that they were dogs and swine, but they were washed (in the blood of Christ) only to return to the mire.

He never said no such thing

way to add words to scripture.

 

[DorothyMae]

Yes this was my line of reasoning. I believe it is a very strong argument for salvation not being loseable.
I invite @DorothyMae to explain and harmonize the above two Scriptures (John 17:12 and John 18:9) in her understanding of Judas' salvation being lost. Because Jesus lost none according to John 18:9. But if John 17:12 is interpreted to mean that He lost Judas (instead of what we believe, that Judas was a lost man and never found to begin with) that means Jesus indeed lost some. If one wants to argue for Judas' salvation, then they need to clear this contradiction.

I also thought of this last night:
John 6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.

Why was this so important to Jesus to gather all the remnants and nothing being lost. Did Jesus run out of power for multiplying food so He wanted to save the scraps for later? What else can it mean, "fragments that remain" and "nothing be lost", when it can be only one thing in the world.
Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

If my interpretation is wrong and some is indeed lost, please provide an alternative explanation of significance and meaning in Jesus commandment to the apostles to gather the remnants so that "nothing be lost".

2While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
The “except” means only one was lost. If I had 12 marbles and kept all but one, I lost the one. One cannot lose sosomething one never had. So Judas was lost. At any point in the journey with Christ one can change one’s mind. Salvation is described as past, present and future in the Bible. Only OSAS theology has a problem with that as it is the fixed past for you.

Jesus never told his disciples they were now saved nor that they were still damned. Bu what is true is one can be given to Jesus and later lost by their own choice to leave.

One among that group was lost. Another replaced him. His place in the kingdom was given to another.

Sorry this is short. Only taking a break. More if you wish to continue.

D

 

[DorothyMae]

Where in the Bible does it say that “these that Peter speaks of followed Christ for self-promoting reasons, they were given the gospel but never received it by FAITH - they received by their FLESH for selfish gain that's why they are still "dogs" and "swine" returning to their own vomit and mire.”? Moreover, Peter does not tell us that they are still dogs and swine—he tells us that they were dogs and swine, but they were washed (in the blood of Christ) only to return to the mire.

To become a Christian in those days was to invite imprisonment, beating or crucixion. No one thought it was for selfish gain. Sorry, try a different argument.

 

[DorothyMae]

Because they want to read Romans to Philemon into every time period which the Bible deals with, including Genesis and Revelations.

I don’t understand what you want to say. Non believers don’t read the Bible so the warnings are to believers.

 

[Guojing]

I don’t understand what you want to say. Non believers don’t read the Bible so the warnings are to believers.

I was referring to your detractors in this thread.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I don’t understand what you want to say. Non believers don’t read the Bible so the warnings are to believers.

I cannot remember who stated in the forums , but someone claimed as a non believer that they read the bible and became a believer reading the gospels...

 

[DorothyMae]

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

The plan of God was before time. Whosoever was willing by their own response was not.

Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ.

His love for all in Hell is undying. Doesn’t save them.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

As long as you continue in the faith. You leave, that’s a game changer.

Romans 11:29 (HCSB)
29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. (What does irrevocable mean to you?)

Salvation is not a calling and this does not talk about salvation at all. You cherry pick verses.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Romans 5:15 (ESV)
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

The ten foolish virgins were rejected because they had done nothing. The unwise steward had has gift taken and given to another like Judas. The servant who refused to forgive had his debt reinstated. No word about a permanent gift of salvation. The Jews, btw, had the Kingdom taken away from them,

Doesn't it BOTHER you that with the statement you just POSTED, Gifts can certainly be lost, you just contradicted these verses and a whole host of other verses ? ? ?

You cherry pick isolated verses and paste them together thinking you are forcing God to do what he never promised if we don’t do our part.

So if a believer says they’re afraid they’ll not remain believing, you guys just tell them the theology so no worries. I would tell them to press in to the Lord praying for strength and so build a relationship.

 

[DorothyMae]

I was referring to your detractors in this thread.

Please answer the post, not attack me.

 

[Guojing]

Please answer the post, not attack me.

Strange, I was trying to extend some empathy to you here on this thread, and here you go claiming that I am joining your opponents here in attacking you.