Not By Works

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EleventhHour said:
God knows every choice we are going to make before it is made, therefore He is able to make His will come to pass.
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This is interesting:

(John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.)

(John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.)

(John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,)

(John 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.)

(John 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation)

(John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.)
 
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Guojing said:
So you believe Man does not have free will?
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EleventhHour said:
Not even what I stated... I put "free" in quotations marks meaning the "free" is limited.

Free will does not support your theory anyway.
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For me, the moment something is limited, it cannot be free. Free will simply means what it says.

Guess you have a different definition of free will then.
 
Guojing said:
For me, the moment something is limited, it cannot be free. Free will simply means what it says.

Guess you have a different definition of free will then.
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Let me put it this why ... It is not what I believe, but in reality free will from birth to death does not exist.

No one has a will that it completely free from constraints and predetermination.

Moreover free will have never been proven to exist either even within the brain.
 
EleventhHour said:
Let me put it this why ... It is not what I believe, but in reality free will from birth to death does not exist.

No one has a will that it completely free from constraints and predetermination.

Moreover free will have never been proven to exist either even within the brain.
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Let's make it simple here then.

I believe the leaders of Israel, the Sanhedrin etc, could have exercised their free will and accept Jesus as their Messiah, whether was it when Jesus was in the flesh, or finally, when Stephen was preaching to them in Acts 7, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

But in both cases, they rejected the gospel of the kingdom. When the Son preached to them, they reject, when the Holy Spirit preached to them thru Stephen, they reject.

In both cases, they killed the messenger. That signaled the rejection of the Trinity, the final act in Acts 7 meant they rejected the Holy Spirit.

God foresaw that from the beginning yes, no one is denying that. My point is that they could have accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah at any point of time. God foreknowledge did not predetermined that they had to reject.
 
Guojing said:
Let's make it simple here then.

I believe the leaders of Israel, the Sanhedrin etc, could have exercised their free will and accept Jesus as their Messiah, whether was it when Jesus was in the flesh, or finally, when Stephen was preaching to them in Acts 7, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

But in both cases, they rejected the gospel of the kingdom. When the Son preached to them, they reject, when the Holy Spirit preached to them thru Stephen, they reject.

In both cases, they killed the messenger. That signaled the rejection of the Trinity, the final act in Acts 7 meant they rejected the Holy Spirit.

God foresaw that from the beginning yes, no one is denying that. My point is that they could have accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah at any point of time. God foreknowledge did not predetermined that they had to reject.
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Let me put this simply... you would be wrong.

  • Hebrews 9:26
    He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
  • Acts 15:18
    "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
God was not working with humans to put His plan place.. I would state with regards to salvation it was both foreknowledge and predetermined.

Now I know why you view scripture the way you do
 
EleventhHour said:
Let me put this simply... you would be wrong.

  • Hebrews 9:26
    He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
  • Acts 15:18
    "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
God was not working with humans to put His plan place.. I would state with regards to salvation it was both foreknowledge and predetermined.

Now I know why you view scripture the way you do
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Yep, with your view regarding omniscience and free will, I can also understand how you can believe that the gospel of grace contained in 1 Cor 15:1-4, must have also been preached even during the OT.

So that is another reason why covenant theology is such a popular interpretive framework held by so many Christians.
 
Guojing said:
Yep, with your view regarding omniscience and free will, I can also understand how you can believe that the gospel of grace contained in 1 Cor 15:1-4, must have also been preached even during the OT.

So that is another reason why covenant theology is such a popular interpretive framework held by so many Christians.
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What is your theory called?
 
Guojing said:
Mid Acts dispensationalism.

Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism are two different interpretive frameworks of Scripture.
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Is this accurate of your dogma?

The Bible is written for us but not all of it is for us, that is the body of Christ only is to follow what the Apostle Paul taught in his Epistles for doctrine and practice. Paul was the first Christian and the body of Christ (Christian Church) started with his conversion. The Gospels are not for the body of Christ but are for the nation of Israel. Jesus only came to save the nation of Israel and His teachings were faith plus works for salvation, and the New Covenant was only for the nation of Israel and the body of Christ is not in the New Covenant.

http://www.seeking4truth.com/mid_acts_dispensationalism.htm
 
EleventhHour said:
Is this accurate of your dogma?

The Bible is written for us but not all of it is for us, that is the body of Christ only is to follow what the Apostle Paul taught in his Epistles for doctrine and practice. Paul was the first Christian and the body of Christ (Christian Church) started with his conversion. The Gospels are not for the body of Christ but are for the nation of Israel. Jesus only came to save the nation of Israel and His teachings were faith plus works for salvation, and the New Covenant was only for the nation of Israel and the body of Christ is not in the New Covenant.

http://www.seeking4truth.com/mid_acts_dispensationalism.htm
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These pages don't present the whole picture.

If you want to learn more about mid acts dispy, I would recommend you to listen to Les Feldick. https://www.lesfeldick.org/

Another good reference would be Cornelius R Stam https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/
 
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