Not By Works

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Guojing said:
Yes, miracles can happen, no one is denying that.

I was discussing the issue of signs and wonders to others when you reply to my post. Signs and wonders are not random miracles being performed. Signs and wonders point people to Jesus as the Son of God.

That role has ceased ever since Israel rejected Jesus.
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It would be more correct to say the signs and wonder ended in Jesus' generation, Paul

(2 Cor 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.)

(2 Cor 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.)
 
dcontroversal said:
Everyone pay attention to the deceptive liar--> Judges in this post.... I highlighted and bolded HIS WORDS in the following post and HE UNBOLDED what I bolded to make it look like I was directing my statement at the word of God.....HIS WORDS were..

Judges said ->>If you no longer believe/ trust in Christ you no longer have the blood of Christ to cover you sins.
Your sinning from that point forward is held to your account, not Christ's anymore.

Judges should be banned for de-bolding what I bolded to make it look like I said something I did not say toward the word of God....this right here PROVES your character and who leads you pal...NO HONESTY OR INTEGRITY!
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NO HONESTY OR INTEGRITY!
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That is the one thing you can be sure of where he is concerned!
He fools no one but himself.
 
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EleventhHour said:
That is the one thing you can be sure of where he is concerned!
He fools no one but himself.
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I can say three things...

a. God would not lead someone to do what he did.
b. It is as deceptive as it can be to make it look like I made a statement agains the word of God
c. He should be sent packing IMO because it is obvious that he is not of God by his actions, deeds, words and twist of the word of God!
 
Saved by faith. Which means to have trust/confidence in God. That doesnt mean there isn't prerequisites (obedience) to getting faith.
 
Judges1318 said:
You make it a point to insist that the cross of Christ is sufficient to cover any and all sin and in any amount, and therefore, the believer remains forever and always saved no matter what.
But when I call you out on that you suddenly insist you didn't say that.
Why do you keep doing this?
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EleventhHour said:
Yes, I insist on following the Gospel that is true. :)
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How is that not the 'I can sin all I want' gospel?
 
BlessedCreator said:
Saved by faith. Which means to have trust/confidence in God. That doesnt mean there isn't prerequisites (obedience) to getting faith.
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False.....faith is a gift....it is NOT EARNED by obedience....wow man....this is a basic truth

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God

God has dealt to EVERY MAN A MEASURE OF FAITH except JESUS. ..I cannot believe that anyone can state the above about faith when even a cursory read of the bible reveals it to be false!
 
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dcontroversal said:
The prize was not salvation genius.....try context....sheesh!
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Let’s do that.

The context (Philippians 3).

Verse 8: All things counted loss to win Christ. (No need to do this; that would be works salvation).

Verse 9: To be found with the righteousness of God by faith. (It does not end here, OSAS’ers).

Verse 10: To know him and the power of his resurrection, being made comformable unto his death.

Verse 11: If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Verse 12: Not as though I had already attained: but I follow after.

Verse 13: I count not myself to have apprehended (unto the resurrection/salvation)

Verse 14: I press for the prize (the resurrection/salvation).

Why the need to press toward something you are guaranteed of receiving no matter what? And the OSAS doctrine causes you to behave contrary to this scripture; for OSAS’ers walk as though they have attained unto the resurrection (salvation). And they don’t need to win anything or anyone, that would be works.

This is what it means to follow Christ:

1 Peter 2:21-23
[21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously

1 Corinthians 9:27
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There’s no need to keep under the body in OSAS; you will never be castaway no matter what.

Now will you follow the instructions of scripture and not mock and revile others?
 
dcontroversal said:
Everyone pay attention to the deceptive liar--> Judges in this post.... I highlighted and bolded HIS WORDS in the following post and HE UNBOLDED what I bolded to make it look like I was directing my statement at the word of God.....HIS WORDS were..

Judges said ->>If you no longer believe/ trust in Christ you no longer have the blood of Christ to cover you sins.
Your sinning from that point forward is held to your account, not Christ's anymore.

Judges should be banned for de-bolding what I bolded to make it look like I said something I did not say toward the word of God....this right here PROVES your character and who leads you pal...NO HONESTY OR INTEGRITY!
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I quoted myself in that post, lol.
Here's my original post I quoted:
Judges1318 said:
If you no longer believe/ trust in Christ you no longer have the blood of Christ to cover you sins.
Your sinning from that point forward is held to your account, not Christ's anymore.
Christ does not pay the sin debt of people who do not believe/ trust in Him to do that.
The condition for having your sins forgiven is that you believe/ trust in Him.
You don't work to have your sins forgiven, you trust in the ministry of Christ in order to have your sins forgiven.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment" - Hebrews 10:26


(Note: This is talking about the person who willfully sins in unbelief and a rejection of Christ. It's not talking about the struggling saint moving on to maturity through their continued believing. The blood of Christ covers that person. They still believe.)
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Why didn't you un-embolden the part I did embolden in my post that you are complaining about that got associated with your reply? :LOL:
 
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azamzimtoti said:
It would be more correct to say the signs and wonder ended in Jesus' generation, Paul

(2 Cor 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.)

(2 Cor 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.)
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Paul was given signs and wonders yes, but it is no longer to signal to Israel about their Messiah.

Its to signal to the other Jewish believers that Paul's new gospel of grace is authorized by God.
 
VCO said:
AMEN.

I repeat that I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS THIS HEAR or ANY WHERE.

I will answer that ONE QUESTION, only; because you are slightly Wrong about the purpose for Signs and Wonders.

It is NOT the Signs and Wonders that POINT people to CHRIST, it is THE HOLY SPIRIT BLESSING THE WORD OF GOD TAUGHT.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.


The PURPOSE for Signs and Wonders was NEVER to point people to CHRIST. It was to confirm the NEW TESTAMENT was Equally GOD's WORD to the JEWS, as the Old Testament.

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


IT REMOVED THEIR LAST EXCUSE FOR NOT BELIEVING THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS ALSO GOD'S WORD. MOST OF THEM STILL DID NOT BELIEVE CHRIST WAS THEIR MESSIAH!


Mark 16:20 (NIV)
20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and
confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


There is your SOLE Purpose for Signs and Wonders.

You man be interested in an a study, I did originally in the Late 80's, penned by a hand written Bible Study, then updated it will more info, in the early 90's, after I got a computer in 1995, about a year after that, revised it to fit the Format of Bible-Discussion,com, and in March of 2019, after Bible-Discussion, closed their site, I reposted it HERE. It had to be posted in NINE Segments, because it was a rather lengthy Study. If you read some of the rebuttals I have received, YOU WILL FIND OUT it causes the Charismatics, to get VERY ANGRY, so I choose now, not to respond to that Thread. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/a-non-charismatic-understanding-of-tongues.184020/
Enjoy the Truth!
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You should at least quote the clear verse of John 20:30-31 before you conclude about the role of signs and wonders.
 
Judges1318 said:
For obvious reasons Christ did not consult the faith of Lazarus before he raised him from the dead.
Obviously, raising people from the dead in this life is not a matter of the dead person having faith to be raised from the dead.
I'd put that more in the category of a worker of miracles, not someone with the gift of healing or the gift of faith.

"7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, a and to still another the interpretation of tongues. b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

And before you ask, no, I do not have the faith to raise a person from the dead. I've never even been in the presence of a dead body since becoming a Christian. But if such an opportunity arises to raise the dead and God instills faith in me, I will raise the dead, just as any other Christian in those circumstances who believes in the gifts and is given the faith to do it will also do. But at this point my sober assessment of the matter is I do not think I possess that gift.

"Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your a faith; 7if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, b do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully." - Romans 12:3-8
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If it was meant as a sign, it will have nothing to do with how strong your faith is but how strong Jesus, whom you put your faith in.
 
CherieR said:
Are you implying that there is a certain number of times a believer in Jesus can sin and still be saved but if the believer sins too much that they're not saved?
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No.

The sin that condemns the (ex) believer is any sin he commits after he departs from the Lord in unbelief.
Not doubt, but unbelief.

Because they don't believe anymore they no longer have God's forgiveness through faith in Christ.
You don't get to have what faith in Christ secures if you don't have faith in Christ anymore.
That person is now an unbeliever.
Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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