Not By Works

[mailmandan]

If your highlighted quotes are the proof-text of my "attack and judgement" than you are much too thinned skinned to be on an adult forum. I would suggest a simpler forum with less freedom of thought there are many to choose from, just google easily offended. BTW you have posted much worse.

LOL! I've been a member of multiple Christian forums for almost 10 years now and have heard much worse, so it's not about be me being thinned skinned. Just recently, I’ve heard people from the NOSAS camp say that OSAS is of the devil and accuse OSAS believers of promoting a license to sin and being blinded by the god of this world and being ignorant and stubborn and not understanding the depth of wickedness they dwell in. Also, lightbearer just recently made these detestable statements towards OSAS believers in 3 posts below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6567

Now show me what I have posted that's much worse.

No, my hope rather specific.

How specific? Hope in Christ alone or in your performance? I'm yet to hear you say that we are saved through faith (in Christ) alone and you also seem to imply that salvation is either obtained and/or maintained by works.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? James 2:19-20 Faith alone theology is a notion without an example.

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" which is not to be confused with salvation through faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

You may think your defense of non-compliance makes you virtuous, it does not. You may think that your "faith alone theology" will save you but it is a false hope. Faith alone theology is as much an idol as the "we are sons of Abraham" was to the Pharisees.

Faith in Christ alone for salvation theology is not a false hope. Faith in works for salvation theology is a false hope.

Faith minus obedience = lost

Faith that produces no obedience at all is not authentic faith. Since you believe that we are saved by faith + obedience/works, why don't you explain to us just how much obedience it takes to be saved? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have performed "enough" obedience so now the Lord will finally be able to save you?

Of course. As Romans 1:16 states, it is the power of God that is used to bring the Jews first and later the Gentiles into salvation. Regardless of our sensibilities, God's order was Jews first then gentiles. On the issue of what it means to believe, Jesus states:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" John 8:31 KJV
Believing the gospel is obeying the gospel. We may differ in what is to be obeyed but not the need to obey.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So the gospel to you is salvation by believing in Him + obedience/works?

On the your question of my former avatar being DJ2? I have been DJ3 since June of 2019 but I am certainly DJ2 as the exact pelican picture is being used.

I hope this answers your questions.

Not exactly. So you are not DJ2 and the similar avatar name and pelican picture is just a coincidence?

 

[mailmandan]

Bible--> He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. (Rev. 3:21) Faith Alone--> We cannot overcome, so God will never ask us to.

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[Judges1318]

What I have continually stated is that our one belief in Jesus for salvation brings an enduring result as per the verbs meaning in Greek which you deny.

No. If you'll remember, you said the Perfect tense means 'ongoing results into the future and never able to stop'.
I showed you it means 'ongoing results up to the present' and that they can stop.
You denied the Greek resources I provided that show this.
How can you just decide to change the meaning of the Perfect tense?
Doesn't that bother your conscience at all?

I really do not even know what you mean when you state "stop believing" since how does one deny what is a reality within

It's called choosing to not believe.
People choose to not believe things they are shown to be true all the time.
That's what every person does who rejects the call of God.
That's what every person does who falls away from believing in God.
They decide that they do not want to believe what they were shown to be true about the gospel.
Jesus told us about the things that cause a person to do that--trials, temptations, love for other things...

You demonstrated this ability to not want to believe what you were shown to be true when you rejected what I showed you to be true about the Perfect tense.

Belief in the biblical definition is not a cognitive assertion... when you understand what belief is in the classical biblical sense you would understand why your argument is a non-starter.

'Believing' is your decision to trust in what God has shown you to be true about the gospel.
God showing you that the gospel is true is the supernatural part from God.
You have the choice to reject that.
Your trust in what He has shown you to be true is your part.

You misunderstand OSAS and that is why you find it loathsome.

I understand it all to well.
And I reject it because it's quite clear that you can stop trusting in what God has shown you to be true about the gospel.
God does not make you trust Him.
He provides everything you need so you can trust Him, but He does not make you trust Him.

 

[Judges1318]

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

That's why we should hold fast to the faith God has graciously given to us in order for us to trust in Him.

 

[Judges1318]

and not understanding the depth of wickedness they dwell in.

Not because of believing in osas, but because of how one has been acting in this forum and thinking it's okay because knowing about osas is the sign of the supreme 'knowing' relationship with God.
No, how you act shows you know God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

On the your question of my former avatar being DJ2? I have been DJ3 since June of 2019 but I am certainly DJ2 as the exact pelican picture is being used.

I hope this answers your questions.

Not exactly. So you are not DJ2 and the similar avatar name and pelican picture is just a coincidence?

seems he admitted he was bro

 

[mailmandan]

That's why we should hold fast to the faith God has graciously given to us in order for us to trust in Him.

20 + years now and going strong and it wasn't a difficult burden based on mere self effort.

 

[mailmandan]

Not because of believing in osas, but because of how one has been acting in this forum and thinking it's okay because knowing about osas is the sign of the supreme 'knowing' relationship with God.
No, how you act shows you know God.

So accusing osas believers of not understanding the depth of wickedness they dwell in is the proper way to act in demonstrating that you know God? Anger and bitterness towards osas doesn't speak volumes for me. You could do better than that.

 

[mailmandan]

I have been DJ3 since June of 2019 but I am certainly DJ2 as the exact pelican picture is being used.

I see now that you have clearly admitted to being DJ2.

 

[posthuman]

This thread is cyclical......

yes

i can go a month or so without checking it, then come back and catch up on whatever 10 pages or so are most recent -- and it's the same conversation going on with a few new faces. sometimes old faces with new accounts lol

it's amazing that something so simple - so absolutely scriptural, that we're not saved by works - is so constantly challenged!

it's a bit like groundhog day, and we get to try to do better each time

 

[Judges1318]

HI!

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

In this Age of GRACE, can you lose this faith also, that GOD gave?

God Bless...

This proves my point exactly.
Faith comes from God.
The responsibility to walk according to the faith God has given comes from you.

 

[Judges1318]

I see now that you have clearly admitted to being DJ2.

And this matters why?
Why do you people act like some kind of internet Gestapo?
It's really none of your business.
It's not like he was trying to hide anything.
Good grief, dan, let it go.

 

[Lightskin]

Good question. On either side of the Path of the Just, Satan has two ditches and doesn't care into which one we fall:

Left Ditch: License - Love without Obedience - the myth of OSAS resides here.
Right Ditch: Legalism - Obedience without Love - the myth of earned salvation resides there.

Path of the Just: Obedience motivated by love - the centerline upon which I strive to stay.

So you are trying to earn God’s grace through obedience rather than through faith. On another note the myth that OSAS is a license to sin is exactly that, a myth.

 

[mailmandan]

And this matters why?
Why do you people act like some kind of internet Gestapo?
It's really none of your business.
It's not like he was trying to hide anything.
Good grief, dan, let it go.

It was a simple question that I aksed him and he answered. Unlike you, who when asked if your previous avatar name was 'Ralph' was like pulling teeth to get you to answer the question. It matters because he was more open about what he truly believed when he was DJ2, especially in regards to water baptism.

 

[posthuman]

the false Protestant idea that I'm already forgiven for sins I haven't even committed yet is curiously similar to the Roman Catholic practice of selling forgiveness for sins that have not yet been committed

i don't see a similarity here at all -- forgiveness is not 'for sale' and redemption is accomplished - price paid in full

when Christ hung on the cross, sir, every single one of your sins was 'future' -- He isn't crucified a second time. we're not 'adding sins' to His shoulders every time we repent of another one; 'by one sacrifice' He has made perfect -- taking upon His shoulder the iniquity of us all.

so the old practice of 'selling indulgences' was in fact predicated on the very same notion you are implying, which is, that sin is 'not yet' forgiven, not yet dealt with, not yet atoned for -- as though Christ must be crucified anew for every misstep. this is why they said, here's an advance for you to go and sin some more, if you give us money. if the RCC in those days had been preaching the good news of a Savior who 'in one single day took away all our iniquity' ((re: Zech. 3:9)) then there would be no need to make merchandise of the future. the RCC, as you also, were making atonement 'contingent' on **extras** rather than resting in the finished work of the cross and the empty tomb.

 

[mailmandan]

I see now that you have clearly admitted to being DJ2.

Obedience is necessary, whether you label it a work or not. Salvation is predicated on acts of obedience, we may debate what needs to be obeyed but not the need itself. Your attitude toward any and all physical acts being works of righteousness is a but a farce. By your definition the applying of blood on the door posts to protect the Hebrews in Egypt would be a "work of righteousness" and therefore not needed.

Your defense is no different then any other person caught up in faith alone regeneration theology. You label verses written in the general as definitive. You label commands for obedience as suggestions. You bring up issues that are not pertinent to the subject such as Roman Catholicism. You shamelessly offer bizarre explanations for such clear and definitive verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 etc. Explanations so convoluted as to be labeled childish.

Again, your defense is based on "all" human acts of obedience as works of righteousness. This argument is both biblically unsound and logically empty. God predicating our need for obedience does not negate the existence of His grace any more then knocking earns salvation (Matthew 7:7-8).

Typical argument made by someone who teaches salvation by faith + works.

 

[posthuman]

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords, Who only hath immortality." - 1 Timothy 6:16

"and that life was the light of men"

it's His breath by which you live, move and have your existence. is His breath decaying unto extinction or eternal?

 

[posthuman]

I see now that you have clearly admitted to being DJ2.

i confess that i am post

 

[Rosemaryx]

Our faith is a gift from God , we have nothing in ourselves to keep us , He who started a good work in us will see us through to the end , great is His faithfulness Amen...
...xox...

 

[posthuman]

Romans 3:25 KJV

not that you will accept it, probably, but here are keys which answer your objection:

​

To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: ​

that He might be just, and The Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

(Romans 3:26)​

​

future sin = unbelief in the Son. He has made a new covenant, the old waxing away

if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins ​

(John 8:24)​

​

'all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men,' save blasphemy against the Spirit: Who testifies the Son is God having made propitiation for all who believe.


if Romans 3:25 says that Christ on the cross is only sufficient for sins of the past, then there is no salvation -- for there is 'no more sacrifice for sin' only a fearful anticipation of damnation.
all your sins were future when He gave His life for you. He didn't do a half-ass job; He finished the work.