That’s exactly what he thinks.
Micah 6:8 is his favorite verse because he thinks it pertains to works. But I digress; he doesn’t preach works.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Micah 6:8 is his favorite verse because he thinks it pertains to works. But I digress; he doesn’t preach works.
None of those things have to do with being punished. Isaac was not to be a sacrifice because of his sins, blood on the mercy seat did not remove guilt. If you're willing to have an innocent man suffer rather than accepting your own culpability, I'd call that wickedness.
Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225): In short, faith in one of two gods cannot possibly admit us to the dispensation of the other, so that it should impute righteousness to those who believe in him, and make the just live through him, and declare the Gentiles to be his children through faith. Such a dispensation as this belongs wholly to Him through whose appointment it was already made known by the call of this self-same Abraham, as is conclusively shown by the natural meaning. Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book 5, Chapter 3
You're using theologically loaded words. Righteousness is accounted to us the moment we repent and place our faith in Christ.
Ooo you've read someone prior to Augustine and cherry picked both the person and the quote. Tertullian is heterodox for multiple reasons, this being one of them.
you are grossly mischaracterizing the character of Christ dying for our sins. it is precisely those who believe Him, accepting their own culpability, whose sins He bore.
no, i have demonstrated that the concept of imputed righteousness is present in extra-scriptural Christian theology long before Luther.
because you implied it wasn't.
that is all.
((and you attacked the messenger))
So by believing that God would take the guilt that you have accrued and lash it out on Christ on the cross, that's accepting your culpability?
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EleventhHour
Guest
I agree.. what is the difference between accounted and imputed?
What is repent though... let us make sure we have clearly defined terms?
i don't think you understand the types i mentioned.
they have to do with a penalty being removed -- why then would they have to do with punishment?
perhaps you are not aware that i do not believe God forsook Himself on the cross?
A change of mind. A recognition that the path we're on leads to destruction and the only way to not get there is by following Christ in obedience. A recognition that in our hearts we would in fact condemn an innocent man if it meant saving ourselves.
I think we're speaking the same language, but recognizing different things. My issue is not with a legal substitution, it is with the idea that the exact measure of my guilt was placed upon Him. It was because of my sin, but I don't see God's wrath anywhere on calvary.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
I would agree with this I think... not sure where the contention is I would have to go back and read.
So what is the difference between imputed and accounted to us?
E
EleventhHour
Guest
@SoulWeaver we are playing nice together.
It does happen.... I blame it on @blue_ladybug she stirs up all the contention...
Oh boy I wonder if she heard me!!
It does happen.... I blame it on @blue_ladybug she stirs up all the contention...
Oh boy I wonder if she heard me!!
no
by believing that the rod of Moses devoured the serpents of Pharaoh's sorcerers, so that they were contained within it.
by believing that Noah was inside the ark, sealed inside and out with atonement, which door God Himself shut.
by believing that the Ministry of Condemnation engraved in stone was contained within the wood of the ark which testifies, covered with gold, under the seat of mercy in which is the presence of God, sprinkled with blood.
by believing that God Himself was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. that He picked up my burden, like the gates of the wicked city, and carried it away, as tho to Hebron, on His shoulder.
by believing west is far from east, and the bottom of the sea is practically inaccessible.
as i said, i am not one of those who think God denied God in order to absolve us. He cannot deny Himself.
He made an immovable object, and He moved it.
the verse says, "we esteemed Him stricken"
it doesn't say He was stricken. it says we thought it looked like He was
maybe we're on the same page, actually
i understand you assuming i agree with the majority position on this topic, but it turns out, i don't
i believe He bore my sin. that isn't equivalent to i believe He is God, and that when He sang Psalm 22, He was speaking as the Son of Man, as Israel -- as a sign to Israel, of what they thought vs. what is reality. towards the end of Psalm 22, it is written, "He has not hidden His face from them" -- rather, He held out His hands all day to them, but they would not. they thought, God has forsaken us, but He was right there, at the door, the whole time.
by His knowledge shall The Righteous One, My Servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and He shall bear their iniquities.
(Isaiah 53:11)
this says i am accounted righteous by His knowledge -- isn't that imputed righteousness? (Isaiah 53:11)
Imputation implies that it is Christ's actual righteousness that God counts on our behalf. Accounted means God counts something that is not yet a reality but will be. We are accounted righteous because to God the process is complete, but it is still a process for us. We still learn the ways of righteousness and as we walk we become righteous in fact. Of course, we'll never get there until the end.
typo -- i meant, He bore my sins, and that isn't equivalent to being punished for them.
must have accidentally deleted part of my post
the verse says, "we esteemed Him stricken"
it doesn't say He was stricken. it says we thought it looked like He was
maybe we're on the same page, actually
i understand you assuming i agree with the majority position on this topic, but it turns out, i don't
i believe He bore my sin. that isn't equivalent to i believe He is God, and that when He sang Psalm 22, He was speaking as the Son of Man, as Israel -- as a sign to Israel, of what they thought vs. what is reality. towards the end of Psalm 22, it is written, "He has not hidden His face from them" -- rather, He held out His hands all day to them, but they would not. they thought, God has forsaken us, but He was right there, at the door, the whole time.
by His knowledge shall The Righteous One, My Servant,make many to be accounted righteous,and He shall bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:11)this says i am accounted righteous by His knowledge -- isn't that imputed righteousness?
It could be said to be imputation, but my quibble is with what it is being imputed. It seems to me the righteousness accounted to us is our as-of-yet unrealized righteousness rather than Christ's earnings on the cross. The final result of the process of us becoming who God intended us to be. We are hid in Christ so that He may refine us.