Good grief, man, haven't you been reading my posts for the last three days????
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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No Scripture just opinions. Post scripture and we can discuss. Good grief.
Of all the many scriptures I've posted the last few days which ones do you not agree with? Let's discuss.
Okay, you win, lol.I asked you first.
It's not a number. It's a progression.
Progress in holiness is how we measure the satisfactory fulfillment of the command to be holy in how we live (1 Peter 1:15).
Sanctification is a process, not a hard and fast number of holy deeds.
"if you possess these qualities (see vs.5-7 preceding) in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:8
Peter goes on to say that those who do not have this happening in their life have forgotten they have been cleansed of their sins:
"9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins." - 2 Peter 1:9
Which echos the Bible's exhortation to not let what you heard in the beginning slip from your heart in unbelief.
That is why I think we made a slight mistake in interpreting this verse for almost 2000 years.
John 10:15-16 (HCSB)
15 as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
The Two Folds are:
O.T. Assembly
&
N.T. Assembly
HE IS SPEAKING TO THE LAST OF THE O.T. Assembly, and speaking about the N.T. Assembly not of this fold.
The word Church was not what Jesus or the Apostles used when they spoke about us. BOTH WERE CALLED THE ASSEMBLY.
You can look that up.
Sometime between 100 - 200 A.D. we start calling ourselves the Church. SO they just added that to the Definition of the word.
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
Is it any wonder how some Christians find it easy to put down JEWS?
But the point is HE CALLED BOTH the ASSEMBLY, and the TWO will become ONE at the RAPTURE. THINK IT THREW.
We BOTH are part of the BRIDE OF CHRIST. WE SHARE THE SAME SAVING FAITH.
O.T. ASSEMBLY = THEY BELIEVED GOD, AND THEY WERE EXPECTING THE MESSIAH TO COME A PAY FOR THEIR SINS.
N.T. ASSEMBLY = WE BELIEVE GOD, AND WE KNOW THAT THE MESSIAH DID COME AND PAY FOR OUR SINS.
That is the SAME SAVING FAITH THAT ABRAHAM HAD!
Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6 “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Yes, for that group of people, whoever they are.
But he doesn't say that about these people:
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Luke 13:25-27
In Matthew 7:23 (NIV) we read - “Away from me, you evildoers.”’ In Luke 13:27 (NIV) we read - “Away from me, all you evildoers!”
No indication either group was ever saved. Jesus said, “I never knew you/I don’t know you” and not I once knew you, but don’t know you anymore.
To use the reasoning that Christians were not in the audience seems invalid.
After all, there were not any Christians in the audience with regards to all the Old Testament prophesies concerning Christ/Messiah?
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you...when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us [Christians] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you... (1 Peter 1:10-12).
Is it also possible that Christ spoke those words with a future Christian audience in mind?
After all, there were not any Christians in the audience with regards to all the Old Testament prophesies concerning Christ/Messiah?
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you...when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us [Christians] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you... (1 Peter 1:10-12).
Is it also possible that Christ spoke those words with a future Christian audience in mind?
You're creating another logical fallacy:
'The evildoers in Matthew 7 were never known by Jesus, therefore, Jesus never knew the evildoers in Luke 13.'
There is also no indication in Luke 13:25-27 that they could not have ever been saved . That's just being honest.
It sounds to me like you are the one creating a logical fallacy. I see no indication that they could have ever been saved. You and I just don’t see eye to eye.
Not so much as a measure of holiness as a change of the heart. This heart change is a work of God.
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them"
Ezekiel 36:26-27
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Philippians 2:13
If you note, King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and got her pregnant and had her husband killed in battle to try and cover it up. But after the prophet had showed him his wrong, David was deeply remorseful. Psalm 51 demonstrates his heart after the matter.
Peter after having denied Jesus three times, went out and weep bitterly. After Jesus resurrection he preached boldly about Jesus.
There is a godly sorrow and also a worldly sorrow as noted in 2 Corinthians 7:10. Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus also felt sorrow but it led to his demise.
In Ephesians 2:4-7 it reads:
4. But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5. even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace are ye saved; ) 6. and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7. that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
When I read verse 5 of that passage, I see God reaching out to people right where they are. Imagine being dead in sins and God comes and makes you alive with Christ. In that state of being dead in sins, one definitely cannot earn their salvation. And yet God's grace is sufficient. And then after God saves and breathes life into someone and having raised one up to sit with Christ in the heavenly places, he keeps that one saved always.
No, It is NOT that they had to keep the law, that GOD WAS INTERESTED IN; IT IS WHY, they wanted to keep the LAW. You have fallen into the same Pitfall as Most Christians do. HERE IS THE KEY VERSE:
Deuteronomy 11:1 (ESV)
1 “You shall therefore love the LORD your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always.
The MOTIVE has to be a GOD given LOVE, and that is the ONLY Pure MOTIVE for OBEDIENCE.
John 14:15 (ESV)
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
The MOTIVE has to be a GOD given LOVE, and that is the ONLY Pure MOTIVE for OBEDIENCE.
1 John 5:3 (ESV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT BURDENSOME, ONLY WHEN IT IS DONE OUT OF PURE LOVE.
The MOTIVE has to be a GOD given LOVE, and that is the ONLY Pure MOTIVE for OBEDIENCE.
Leviticus 19:34 (ESV)
34 You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
The MOTIVE has to be a GOD given LOVE, and that is the ONLY Pure MOTIVE for OBEDIENCE.
1 John 3:11-19 (ESV)
11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
17 But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;
The MOTIVE has to be a GOD given LOVE, and that is the ONLY Pure MOTIVE for OBEDIENCE.
THE SAME TRUTH ABOUT THE GOD GIVEN LOVE, Rom. 5:5, must be in us and is the MOTIVE FOR LOVING HIM and Others BY LOVING acts.
Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.
IT NEVER HAS BEEN THAT THE JEWS OR US HAD TO KEEP THE LAW; IT IS WHY we want to keep it.
IT IS THE SAME FAITH, PERIOD.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
We are given a new heart.
God is not perfecting the old ...the new heart is Jesus...it is already perfect.
here is the logical fallacy- " we are saved by belief only, but if we are not doing enough good works, we could lose our salvation"
a huge contradiction that you just refuse to see...
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Rather than you trying to convince @CherieR and the rest of us of your faulty dogma... you tell us what is the real reason have adopted this position because it is plainly obvious this has more to do with a life experience than scripture and truth.
You act as though we are all in danger of loosing our salvation ... why
Be honest, no scripture the situation.
To be honest, I'm not sure about what you say with the new heart. The Spirit he gives ,I agree is perfect for the Spirit is the person of Christ in a believer. I may look further into it.
I hope you don't think I believe that one can earn their salvation from God by doing good works.
Just because one does not subscribe to osas doctrine doesn't mean they must believe salvation is an earned reward for good works.
Yes, He keeps that one saved always.....as long as that person keeps trusting in Christ who sits in heavenly places on his behalf.
That's why we are exhorted to keep believing and not drift or fall away into unbelief.