Not By Works

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mailmandan said:
Paul is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart and Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established from the start will continue.
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No, we don't know that. That's the point we're trying to determine. You're taking the point that is being tested, applied your answer to it, and are now using that answer to prove that what is being tested is true. That's called 'circular reasoning'. It's the #1 osas bias I see from osas believers. That's the bias of the osas mindset--it instantly sees believers in scripture with the presupposition of them being permanently saved and unable to be unsaved regardless of what the passage actually says. That's why you and so many other osas believers literally can not 'see' the passages of scripture that show us believers can stop believing and be lost. You've already have your thinking programmed to only see believers as never able to be unsaved.

mailmandan said:
Those who continue in the faith/stand by faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers. Those who are cut off demonstrate otherwise.
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What we're trying to determine is if those who don't continue in God's kindness, and cut off as a result, were ever believers (ex-believers now, of course). But you instantly apply your osas bias and assume that since they are cut off they could not have ever been saved to begin. You have to do that, because the passage doesn't say that. You add that presupposition to the interpretation of the passage to arrive at that conclusion (that circular reasoning thing I pointed out before). I do not add any presupposition to the passage. I read it for what it plainly says.

mailmandan said:
You remain naive to the fact that there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group all throughout scripture. Why do you think the Bible talks about false teachers, false prophets, false brethren, false disciples, wolves in sheep's clothing, wheat and tares etc...
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There are three kinds of unbelievers: those who never believed, fake believers, and ex-believers. The warning of Romans 11 is to the present believer standing by faith in the tree where natural Jews should be, but aren't because of unbelief. Which, Paul says, is the same fate of the person who is presently standing by faith in the tree but who does continue in God's goodness. They too will be cut off.

mailmandan said:
If Romans 11 is all about losing salvation, then why does Paul start out saying, "has God cast away His people? Certainly not! God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew...Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Then finishes up with, "For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.."
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The Israelites that will be saved are not the same Israelites that were cast away because of unbelief. You realize that, right? This is hardly a passage about God's people not being able to lose salvation. Later generations of Israelites will gain by faith what many, many former generations of Israelites did not gain because of unbelief. Lost Israelites are not still saved in this passage despite their falling away.

Paul uses the fate of centuries of unbelieving Jews (being cut off from the tree) to demonstrate the fate of the gentile who stands by faith in their place in the tree if they do not continue in the goodness of God.

mailmandan said:
All you focus on is continue, cut off without considering the context, then jump to your biased conclusions.
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As I'm showing you, you are actually the one injecting bias into the passage with your presupposition that wherever you see true believers you see people who can't fall away. Meanwhile, I'm just reading the passage for what it plainly says:

“Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. - Romans 11:19-22

No bias required. I'm simply reading the passage for what it plainly says. We gentiles stand by faith in the tree where unbelieving Jews used to be. But we, too, will be cut off if we don't continue in God's grace in unbelief where we once had faith. This being true, we should not be arrogant, but tremble. You have to add osas bias to make the plain passage not say that. And osas does this to many other passages.
 
VCO said:
You are right that there are Prizes or CROWNS that we can win during our walk with CHRIST, but you are wrong, that SALVATION is one of those Prizes or Crowns. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT, and it was considered to be ours BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Paul was apparently very fond of going to the GAMES, like the Olympic style of Games of his day. Hence he uses those games to relate to us how we are to run the Race.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (HCSB)
24 Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.
25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away.
26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air.
27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
[.That disqualified is NOT TALKING about our SALVATION, it is only talking about the Crowns we can win, during our walk with Jesus.]

Let me prove that to you:

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 (HCSB)
9 For we are God’s coworkers. You are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to God’s grace that was given to me, I have laid a foundation as a skilled master builder, and another builds on it. But each one must be careful how he builds on it.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid down. That foundation is Jesus Christ. [.That is SALVATION, is in Jesus Christ ALONE. What you build on that FOUNDATION, is Characteristics of the Christian Life, that you may be worthy of Crowns we may or may not win. Only deeds done out of PURE AGAPE LOVE, the type of LOVE HE poured in us, Rom. 5:5; will qualify as gold, silver, and costly stones, and will qualify us for an Imperishable Crown.]
12 If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
14 If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.


So work done for any motive other than I LOVE THE LORD, is wood, hay, or straw, and will be BURNED UP. The concept that I HAVE TO DO THIS, because it is my part of SALVATION, is NOTHING BUT WOOD, HAY, and STRAW, and will be burned up. If that person is Truly Born Again, though his or her FRUIT is Minimal, he will be saved. IF ALL of their works were done for the WRONG MOTIVE, he will experience WHALING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, as he or she will go to Hades/Hell. They were NEVER BORN AGAIN, and the Road they are on is the Broad Road that leads to Destruction.

So let me explain how the Olympic Games of Paul's day went. The Athletes that won were given a Perishable Crown made out branches with leaves, such as this in the Greek Games a few years ago:
images

So after the winning athlete was Crowned, he or she would walk over to the front row, where his King was Seated, Kneel, take off his Crown, and Cast it at his King's feet, and say, "I won this for you my King!"

Now we are told that our Crowns will be Imperishable Crowns, so we may get to keep it, or throw at JESUS CHRIST's feet. That Imperishable could mean it is made of gold or some other metal. Just speculating, Minimal Leaves or Lots of Leaves could represent how many of our deeds were DONE FOR THE RIGHT MOTIVE OF AGAPE LOVING THE LORD.
images
images


Either way IT NEVER REPRESENTED SALVATION.

Just so you know if your MOTIVE I WANT TO SERVE THE LORD TO GET AS MANY CROWNS AS I CAN GET, is a wrong MOTIVE, it is Greed and Pride.

It has to be because I AGAPE LOVE THE LORD and the Brethren!

Here are the Crowns we can win.

CROWN OF LIFE
CROWN OF JOY or REJOICING
CROWN OF HOPE
CROWN OF GLORYING
CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
CROWN OF VICTORY
And from the Apocrypha they have additional Crowns, but not Inspired:
CROWN OF WISDOM
CROWN OF COMPETENCE
CROWN OF THE AGED
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I forgot the Proof that Disqualified does not refer to SALVATION?

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
{There is a major OSAS VERSE!}

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[.It is not ETERNAL, if you can lose it.]

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.
 
14meatcc said:
I dunno about everyone else, but I can not fathom not believing.
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I used to not be able to when I was a new believer. Kind of like the love struck newlywed who is sure they will love their spouse forever. Then life sets in.
I don't struggle with unbelief. Never have. But I can now understand (empathize with) those who do.
Which is why I can now lovingly encourage them, not write them off as not really saved, or worse, not able to be saved because God didn't create them to be a believer.

14meatcc said:
How can people who deny the saving power of God through Jesus Christ have the Spirit of Truth?
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Love of other things, the trials and sufferings that come with the faith......that's how.

14meatcc said:
I don't want a God that puts my eternal destiny in my filthy, sin filled hands.
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He doesn't.
You can't save yourself.
All you can do is accept or reject Christ's work in salvation.
There's a more detailed answer, but let's go with that for now.
 
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Judges1318 said:
I don't struggle with unbelief. Never have.
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From a man who never brags.
Judges1318 said:
Which is why I can now lovingly encourage them, not write them off as not really saved,
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Silent assumption about the opposition so that you don't have to declare it outright and face the onslaught of obvious counters.
Judges1318 said:
All you can do is accept or reject Christ's work in salvation.
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This is an assumption based on the idea that the exhortations in scriptures are there to keep us from falling out of grace. Again, I am telling you, the exhortations to be faithful to the Word of God, to believe in God, will not - W I L L N-O-T - disappear when we are holy, purified, and unable to sin, therefore proving that exhortations do not imply the possibility of FAILURE.


***sigh***
 
Tellion said:
From a man who never brags.
Silent assumption about the opposition so that you don't have to declare it outright and face the onslaught of obvious counters.
This is an assumption based on the idea that the exhortations in scriptures are there to keep us from falling out of grace. Again, I am telling you, the exhortations to be faithful to the Word of God, to believe in God, will not - W I L L N-O-T - disappear when we are holy, purified, and unable to sin, therefore proving that exhortations do not imply the possibility of FAILURE.


***sigh***
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I should clarify that last statement. While I believe in the Spirit compelling us to do "good works", I don't believe in perfect obedience to the commandments of God. The failure in question is the "ending of the covenant" kind of failure that I'm referring to.
 
The
lightbearer said:
Right here....a prime example of butchering the word of God and denying the context of the word disqualified which is SALVATION......wow

Disqualified G96 ἀδόκιμος adokimos (a-d̮o'-kiy-mos) adj.
1. unacceptable, i.e. rejected.
2. (by implication) worthless.

Disqualified= rejected, worthless.

Shall we look at context now?

LET's

1Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Paul is doing something for the Gospel's sake that he might be a partaker of it.

Shall we continue?

LET's

1Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Paul says RUN that you might receive The prize, partaking of the Gospel.

Let's keep going shall we....

1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Paul says RUN that you MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, Partaking of the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.

Oh this getting good. Doesn't make sense to stop now let's finish.

1Cor 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly ( not aimlessly;not as one who has no fixed goal) so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

Here is an excerpt from the BDAG for the Greek word for Uncertainly. Bold emphasis is mine

ἀδήλως adv. fr. ἄδηλος (Thu. et al.; Plut.; Aelian, VH 1, 21 p. 10, 4; Philo, Conf. Lingu. 119) uncertainly (Ps.-Phocyl. 25; 117) of a race οὕτως τρέχω ὡς οὐκ ἀδήλως not aimlessly, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal 1 Cor 9:26 (cp. Ps.-Phocyl. 28 ἄδηλος πλοῦς). PEg2 61 (context fragmentary).

Paul says RUN that you MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, Partaking of the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. Not aimlessly, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal. Partaking of the incorruptible crown, partaking of the Gospel..

1Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul says not me that he keeps his body into subjection lest by any means he be a Castaway; REJECTED unaccepted in respects to partaking of the Gospel, the prize in receiving the incorruptible crown, life everlasting with the Father and Son for eternity.
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The context is being used in the ministry genius....not salvation! You're not that bright! and the context of prize is reward genius...not salvation!
 
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