Not By Works

[Judges1318]

The whole counsel of God does not include pitting scripture against scripture. We need to properly harmonize scripture scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

The saved Galatians left.
You say 1 John 2:19 means they weren't saved.
That's pitting scripture against scripture.
My doctrine does not do that.

1 John 2:24 actually supports my argument. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you (descriptive of genuine believers) you will also abide in the Son and in the Father. *Also see 1 John 4:13.

You left off the first part of the verse:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." - 1 John 2:24

That is not descriptive.

We know it's not a descriptive passage, just by the simple fact that the believing Galatians left. Apparently, 1 John 2:24 was not very 'descriptive' of those genuine believers. Your doctrine pits scripture against scripture.

 

[EleventhHour]

Jez wonderin'.
You do know that "mocking and scoffing" using other names is still "mocking and scoffing." Right?

Well you have to admit it is pretty funny and ironic to state we who present the Gospel according to scripture and reality are being told that we have flesh eyes...

I am not mocking or scoffing...... I am trying desperately to shake you out of your false doctrine of "works for salvation"

 

[Hevosmies]

I see you online @Chris1975 and @Judges1318 LAST OFFER for the debate. Respond to my post, LETS GET IT:

https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4112649

 

[TooFastTurtle]

What should I do now?

 

[Discern]

f. Your works don't matter because you can't lose your salvation.

Works do matter, very much, but OSAS do not see works as a matter of retaining salvation. There are plenty of reasons to do good works that don't include "working to stay secure". Love for God, gratitude for grace, being instructed by Grace, result of fruit of the Spirit, love of neighbor, brotherly love, agape love, concern for souls, seeing a need, loving the gospel, love, love, love, love, love

1 John 4:13

 

[EleventhHour]

@mailmandan surely you must feel like this by now .......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The saved Galatians left.
You say 1 John 2:19 means they weren't saved.
That's pitting scripture against scripture.
My doctrine does not do that.

1 John does state they were never christians, that means your interpretation pits scripture against scripture. Because they were never of us stands, they were never of us, that’s WHY they left

You left off the first part of the verse:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." - 1 John 2:24

That is not descriptive.

We know it's not a descriptive passage, just by the simple fact that the believing Galatians left. Apparently, 1 John 2:24 was very 'descriptive' of those genuine believers. Your doctrine pits scripture against scripture.

yawn

you will never get it

the galations faith was in then,as. That’s WHY they so easily went back to the law. It was their first love.

 

[Hevosmies]

Its been a WHILE since I posted this, PROBABLY almost a YEAR, time to whip it out again:

PROOF for Perseverance of the saints, eternal security, WHATEVER you want to call it:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus KNOWS THE SHEEP, the GOATS He never knew, not used to know.

Simple & effective

BONUS PROOF for those who say "Jesus will never cast you out but you can just leave", well first of all I'd like to say KEEP WALKING if you gonna out walk God's hand, but uhh, here is another few verses:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That disqualifies even the DEVIL from separating us from God's love, because he is an angel, fallen one, but still an angel. Nor ANY OTHER CREATURE disqualifies every human EVER, persecution and tribulation wont do it either.

Read Romans 8 people!

 

[NayborBear]

Well you have to admit it is pretty funny and ironic to state we who present the Gospel according to scripture and reality are being told that we have flesh eyes...

I am not mocking or scoffing...... I am trying desperately to shake you out of your false doctrine of "works for salvation"

What you "see" as works for salvation! Is "earnestly coveting."
1 Corinthians 12
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Yet, tis y'all OSAS'ers that have been "decieved" into legalism, that "coveting" is a sin!

Jesus said it best!
"What's flesh is flesh!"
"What's Spirit is Spirit!"

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I appreciate the heart and thumbs up but an answer would be even better, what should I do now?

@eternally-gratefull @EleventhHour @mailmandan

 

[John146]

Its been a WHILE since I posted this, PROBABLY almost a YEAR, time to whip it out again:

PROOF for Perseverance of the saints, eternal security, WHATEVER you want to call it:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus KNOWS THE SHEEP, the GOATS He never knew, not used to know.

Simple & effective

BONUS PROOF for those who say "Jesus will never cast you out but you can just leave", well first of all I'd like to say KEEP WALKING if you gonna out walk God's hand, but uhh, here is another few verses:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That disqualifies even the DEVIL from separating us from God's love, because he is an angel, fallen one, but still an angel. Nor ANY OTHER CREATURE disqualifies every human EVER, persecution and tribulation wont do it either.

Read Romans 8 people!

The Church, the body of Christ is never referred to as sheep. This is a reference for Jews. Paul never uses the term sheep in reference of the Church. We’re His body, not sheep.

 

[John146]

That disqualifies even the DEVIL from separating us from God's love, because he is an angel, fallen one, but still an angel. Nor ANY OTHER CREATURE disqualifies every human EVER, persecution and tribulation wont do it either.

Read Romans 8 people!

Wholeheartedly agreed! Not even our own actions can separate us from Christ.

 

[EleventhHour]

I appreciate the heart and thumbs up but an answer would be even better, what should I do now?

I am thinking that is a broad question so I am not sure what you mean?

 

[Hevosmies]

The Church, the body of Christ is never referred to as sheep. This is a reference for Jews. Paul never uses the term sheep in reference of the Church. We’re His body, not sheep.

I disagree! Im not a hyper-dispie so that dont work on me. I dont go by just what PAUL says. I go what the entire witness of Scripture says. Jesus says I have OTHER SHEEP not of this fold (Jews). Its one new man in Christ, Jew and Gentile included. I dont care for this Paul only gimmick.

 

[EleventhHour]

What you "see" as works for salvation! Is "earnestly coveting."
1 Corinthians 12
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Yet, tis y'all OSAS'ers that have been "decieved" into legalism, that "coveting" is a sin!

Jesus said it best!
"What's flesh is flesh!"
"What's Spirit is Spirit!"

1 Cor 12 is not about the gift of salvation.. anyway I am confused by your posts..so let us leave it at that.

 

[John146]

Works do matter, very much, but OSAS do not see works as a matter of retaining salvation. There are plenty of reasons to do good works that don't include "working to stay secure". Love for God, gratitude for grace, being instructed by Grace, result of fruit of the Spirit, love of neighbor, brotherly love, agape love, concern for souls, seeing a need, loving the gospel, love, love, love, love, love

1 John 4:13

Also, because our works, our labor will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Judges1318]

I keep teling you YOU CANT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE anything.
You just cant, either you believe it or you dont. If I tell you there is an invisible unicorn behind you, YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE IT no matter how hard you try.

That's right. Ultimately, we won't, and can't choose to believe anything that we do not think is true. And the only way to know the gospel is true is if God first gives us the proof it's true through the gift of faith. From there we can then place our trust in Christ and be saved. Just knowing the gospel really is true through God's supernatural gift of faith does not save anybody. It isn't until you trust in what God has proven to you is true about the gospel that you will be saved.

I believe faith is given to me by GOD, you believe faith is something you need to whip out on your own and continue in it.

No, no, faith is defined in the Bible as, "the evidence of things not seen. "-Hebrews 11:1 KJV.
Evidence never saved anybody.
You get saved by trusting in what the power of faith shows you to be true.
Faith is a noun.
Trusting/ believing is a verb. It's what you do, or don't do, in response to the evidence of things not seen that God has given you.

This is what happens when you dont read DESCRIPTIVE verses as such. You and @Chris1975 got the same problem, quoting verses from John's epistles and acting like all the perseverance of the saints or OSAS believers are just sitting there holding their seats going "OH NAWWH WE AINT NEVER HEARD OF THAT VERSE, WHAT? We need to love our brother NO WAY? Guess we were wrong all along!"

Oh, no, I believe that you people know about the verses we share. But I'm convinced you can not 'see' them.

SURPRISE, we got ENTIRE bible commentaries, read mr JOHN GILL for example, he has a commentary on EVERY VERSE of the Bible, its free too, not saying the man is infallible but I bring him up to PROVE that there are people in our crew who have READ and COMMENTED on every verse, nothing comes as a surprise.

Just because they are great among men and may indeed be very wise and knowledgeable doesn't mean they know spiritual truth.

"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight." - Luke 10:21 KJV

You should instantly be wary of the person who has been exalted in the eyes of men as being wise and learned, for it from these very kinds of people that God has hidden the truths of God.

WHO WANTS TO go toe to toe on the internet in a theological battle? I think thats a bit safer than going toe to toe in a boxing ring with the GYPSY WARRIOR. You up for the theology debate bro? You OR Chris, y'all gonna quit on the stool!

I already have lots of posts in this thread that you are welcome to respond to.

 

[NayborBear]

I disagree! Im not a hyper-dispie so that dont work on me. I dont go by just what PAUL says. I go what the entire witness of Scripture says. Jesus says I have OTHER SHEEP not of this fold (Jews). Its one new man in Christ, Jew and Gentile included. I dont care for this Paul only gimmick.

Nor do I!
What I am doing is using the teachings of Paul, in trying to show OSAS'ers (for which I referred to in earleir times as "church/es of the Paulene epistles), that, not only do they "cherry pick" Christ's teachings, but also Paul's.

One should be able to see, that by all the mocking and scoffing?
It's hitting "nerves!"

 

[John146]

I disagree! Im not a hyper-dispie so that dont work on me. I dont go by just what PAUL says. I go what the entire witness of Scripture says. Jesus says I have OTHER SHEEP not of this fold (Jews). Its one new man in Christ, Jew and Gentile included. I dont care for this Paul only gimmick.

No Christian or Church during Christ’s ministry on earth. Yes, the Church is made up of former Jew and Gentile.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I am thinking that is a broad question so I am not sure what you mean?

I do want to strive to enter and try to contend for righteous life, but I do not want to take any credit for that or salvation in general, and MailmanDan and VCO answered well to my questions and found a good way to reconcile the Scriptures I asked about.

I see no problem with the POTS or OSAS as they presented it, and I think it is true and as annoying as it is I hate admitting to being wrong but in the end it looks like I was actually believing that no one has passed from death to life until we die and go to heaven, and this life was more of a probation period rather than a free gift of eternal life.

I have believed in Jesus always, but I do not know if I should do something other than tell Jesus I am sorry and I want to cling to Him alone for my eternal life, as a free gift, rather than a future hope after probation. What do you guys think? @mailmandan @you