Not By Works

[Judges1318]

You have not conclusively proved your argument from Hebrews 3:6 & 14 and it’s your NOSAS bias that keeps you from accepting the truth.

I'm just going by the verb forms and moods in the passage.
Can you address the precise argument I've made from the verb forms and show that what I'm saying is wrong?

 

[Chris1975]

GOOD WORKS are NOT PART OF SALVATION. They only SPAWN out of AGAPE LOVE, and ANY works done for the WRONG MOTIVE, are just WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE, and will be BURNED UP when our Works are TESTED. AND some of them are FITHTHY RAGS, totally worthless.

You are not kicking against me, you are kicking against the plain scriptures. I am just posting scripture. And it is plain to see. Be careful to maintain good works.

 

[NayborBear]

i dont understand this ever. why does God tell Hosea to do it? its wrong to take a harlot wife. thats what God told israel to not do why does God go against His own word? even rabbis in commentaries dont understand this.

Because Jehovah is "sovereign."

IOW? If God sez do it? It ain't wrong. Irregardless of how it may, or may not look in the eyes of men. Er Priests even.
Depends on who's eyes your looking to do good in. God's eyes? Man's eyes.

I'll take God's eyes over man's eyes every time.

Tis really hard to understand at the time the "act" is taking place.

Hindsight is usually always 20/20 though.

T'was true then?

Tis true now.

 

[Discern]

Subjunctive mood also expresses "proposal, hope, preference...it is still used in French and Italian....two languages I know.

Again context.

In Hebrews 3:14 the protasis is "if we hold fast to the end".

The apodosis is "we are made partakers"

.

Hebrews 3:14 is a third class conditional sentence.

Hebrews 3:14 is an interesting construction, in that the apodosis comes before the protasis...

We are made partakers (apodosis)

If we hold fast the beginning of our confidence...(protasis)

The apodosis (we have been made partakers) is true only if the protasis (if we hold fast) is true. In this case, the apodosis is in the perfect tense, so the protasis is true because of something that already happened. In other words, we hold fast because we have already been made partakers with Christ.

The only other option is if you accept Judge's understanding of the verse. Unless someone can show me a third way of understanding the relationship of protasis and apodosis in the verse. If you can, Eleventh Hour, I'm all ears.

 

[Judges1318]

I've already stated that the verb that you are talking about is in the subjunctive. Conditional on whether or not one has been made partaker of Christ, which is what the protasis states as the condition.

Holding steadfast is what is in the subjunctive mood and is what may or may not continue. And the 'if' signifies that the finished and ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ continuing is contingent on 'if' the finished action of holding steadfast, which may or may not continue, continues or not.

If what I've derived from those resources is wrong, show me, specifically, in the resources I provided, or any other Greek grammar resource where I'm wrong.

 

[Discern]

No, the subjunctive mood is on the holding steadfast verb, not on the being made partakers verb.
I challenge you to confirm this with the Greek resources I provided.

Holding steadfast is what is in the subjunctive mood and is what may or may not continue. And the finished and ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on whether that finished action of holding steadfast continues or not.

If what I've derived from those resources is wrong, show me, specifically, in the resources I provided, or any other Greek grammar resource where I'm wrong.

I realize the "holding fast" is subjunctive. I also realize that the verse is a third class conditional statement. Observe...

a. The protasis is "if we hold fast"

b. The apodosis is "we have been made partakers with Christ."

c. The conditional statement is saying that the apodosis is true if the protasis is true. But the apodosis is in the perfect tense.

It's the same as saying "if we hold fast, we have been made partakers with Christ." (the apodosis is in a past tense.)

 

[Discern]

Subjunctive mood also expresses "proposal, hope, preference...it is still used in French and Italian....two languages I know.

Again context.

If you do a strict word for word translation of Hebrews 7:14 in French or Italian, it will still say that we have been made partakers if we hold fast...etc.

 

[Judges1318]

The apodosis (we have been made partakers) is true only if the protasis (if we hold fast) is true.

Almost.
We have been made partakers is a completed action and fact. That's what the indicitive mood of the verb 'made' means. And that completed and ongoing partaking stays true 'if' the confidence that secured it continues, because the subjunctive mood of the verb 'hold' means that it may or may not last.

But you erroneously have the holding fast of confidence (that may or may not last) continuing without a doubt and unable to end because the partaking is already complete and ongoing. That defies the subjunctive mood of the 'hold' fast verb. It's no longer an action that may or may not last if you say it will last because of the state of being a partaker of Christ. Your interpretation changes the mood of the 'hold' steadfast verb to that of a certain and unchangeable action.

 

[Discern]

Holding steadfast is what is in the subjunctive mood and is what may or may not continue. And the 'if' signifies that the finished and ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ continuing is contingent on 'if' the finished action of holding steadfast, which may or may not continue, continues or not.

If what I've derived from those resources is wrong, show me, specifically, in the resources I provided, or any other Greek grammar resource where I'm wrong.

The verse is saying that the apodosis (we have been made partakers) is true if the protasis is true (if we hold fast.)

So the verse is saying that "we have been (past tense) made partakers, if we hold fast. (subjunctive)

 

[Judges1318]

we have been made partakers if we hold fast...etc.

That is exactly what it says. But your once saved always saved bias is only able to let you see it as meaning the sure matter of partaking of Christ dictates that the holding fast can not, and will not end. That defies the subjunctive mood of the 'hold' verb which says the holding may or may not continue.

You have the steady, completed state of already having been made a partaker of Christ as long as you satisfy the condition of not undoing the action--which may or may not end--of holding steadfast. The 'if' says the already completed action of being made a partaker remains IF the completed action of holding steadfast does not end. I challenge you, using the resources provided, to show that this is wrong.

 

[Discern]

Almost.
We have been made partakers is a completed action and fact. That's what the indicitive mood of the verb 'made' means. And that completed and ongoing partaking stays true 'if' the confidence that secured it continues, because the subjunctive mood of the verb 'hold' means that it may or may not last.

But you erroneously have the holding fast of confidence (that may or may not last) continuing without a doubt and unable to end because the partaking is already complete and ongoing. That defies the subjunctive mood of the 'hold' fast verb. It's no longer an action that may or may not last if you say it will last because of the state of being a partaker of Christ. Your interpretation changes the mood of the 'hold' steadfast verb to that of a certain and unchangeable action.

There is more than one reason the verb "hold fast" might be in the subjunctive.

Saying "we have been made partakers if we hold fast" has the same meaning as "if we hold fast, we have been made partakers". Agree or disagree? This goes along with "they went out from us because they were not of us, if they had been of us, they would have remained with us."

A follower of Christ does not become of follower of Christ because he or she remains, he or she remains because they are a disciple of Christ.

Also goes along with "if you continue in my Word, then you are my disciples indeed" The statement that they were truly disciples is only true if they continue in His Word. But they did not have to wait and see if they continued in his word to be disciples, they either were or were not His disciples.

 

[Judges1318]

The verse is saying that the apodosis (we have been made partakers) is true if the protasis is true (if we hold fast.)

That is exactly what it says. But you're seeing it through the bias of once saved always saved. Really.

The 'if' places the condition for the completed and ongoing action of partaking to not end on whether or not the believing, which may or may not end, continues. Read carefully what I just said. Compare it to the verb tenses and moods that the Greek grammar resources I provided say are in the verse. If I'm wrong, use those actual Greek resources to show I'm reading it wrong.

 

[VCO]

Just put me on ignore. It will go better for you, then you won't get so worked up about me posting scriptures.

LOL, I am not What you think too. I am 70 years old, and I still go by OLD SCHOOL RULES, and I do not care for FACE BOOK RULES, I have Never even had a single Face Book Accout. THEY CALL USING BOLD TAPE A WAY TO SHOW ANGRY. I do not Go by Face Book Rules, I use BOLD TYPE and colors, to only show EMPHASIS. Do you remember what that is? I am a product of the late 60's, CLASS OF 1967 to be exact. To do THIS was to show EMPHASIS, And still IS as far as I am concerned. Have you ever used an Underwood Electric Typewriter. I had Two Colors, BLACK and RED with the UNDERLINE OPTION, available if you back up and type over it. OLD SCHOOL, will not die until I am dead.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

 

[VCO]

You are not kicking against me, you are kicking against the plain scriptures. I am just posting scripture. And it is plain to see. Be careful to maintain good works.

And I am sure you misinterpreted it.

 

[Judges1318]

Saying "we have been made partakers if we hold fast" has the same meaning as "if we hold fast, we have been made partakers". Agree or disagree?

I disagree, because that locks the 'hold' verb into the indicative mood and makes it the action that is completed and sure and ongoing, and puts the verb of being made a partaker in the subjunctive mood of uncertainty, which becomes certain or uncertain based on whether or not the holding fast is the definitely completed action. The Greek tenses and moods show us that is not the case at all.

Your interpretation puts the 'being made partakers' in the position of the completed action that may or may not last, and the holding fast as the already completed and ongoing action. But the actual Greek tenses and moods puts the being made partakers in the position of the already and completed and ongoing action, and the holding steadfast as the completed action that may or may not continue.

I challenge you to examine closely the truth of what I'm saying. You have the tenses and moods of the two verbs switched so that the holding fast is the indicative, factual, completed action (which the Greek says it is not), and the being made a partaker the completed action that may or may not be true based on the condition of the certainty of holding fast (which the Greek says it is not).

You seem reasonable. I think you are capable of honestly acknowledging what I'm saying.

 

[dcontroversal]

You cannot answer.

Only in your delusional mind......!

 

[dcontroversal]

I find your defense mechanism very interesting when you cannot respond.

I find your continual rejection of the truth interesting, ignorant and tragic at the same time....!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

* except, we all sin, including you.

we all have unaddressed sin, hence our need to confess them.

I am not osas, I agree with you that we are saved by belief, but the truth is, the only thing that will condemn one to hell is not believing and having faith in Jesus.

sinless perfectionism is just as much of a lie as osas.

Ummmmmm..............eternal security does equal Osas.....and the bible does not teach a loss of salvation once one has been saved by grace through faith!

 

[dcontroversal]

You have this backwards.

While you insist it is all about Jesus .. you actually make it about your effort to stay saved.... eternal security is the only place where self effort is abandoned ... hence the narrow gate.

Jesus said the MANY come before his throne peddling the same crap that Judges, PS and the other clown are peddling.....within Christianity ---> The few preach saved eternally by faith without some sort of religious hoop jumping farce....!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Another scripture which many here would see as heresy.

Titus 1
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being [d]abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

no....your twist of said verse ia what we would see as heretical!!