Not By Works

[Discern]

Even if Romans 11 isn't about being cut off from Christ in salvation (but it is) the point I made was the partaking is conditional on 'continuing in his kindness', not as is being argued that the 'continuing' remains because of the partaking. That is what me and discern are discussing.

But the tense of the verb "made partakers" is perfect tense. If it is conditional on something we do in the future, how could it be stated as a perfect tense verb?

 

[Discern]

...if you depend on his power to persevere. Because it surely won't happen in your own power. It's all about trusting. He will do what you trust Him to do.

This post made me think of this verse, John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

[Discern]

Living below, in this old sinful world
Hardly a comfort can afford
Striving alone, to face temptations sore (oh there let me tell you)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Where could I go, oh where could I go?
Seeking a refuge for my soul (for my soul)
Needing a friend, to help me in the end (oh there won't you tell me)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Neighbors are kind, I love them everyone
We get along in sweet accord
But when my soul, needs manna from above (let me tell you)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Where could I go, oh where could I go?
Seeking a refuge for my soul
Needing a friend (a friend) to help me in the end (in the end)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Life here is grand, with friends I love so dear
Comfort I get from God's own Word
Yet when I face this chilling hand of death
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Where could I go (could I go)
Oh where could I go (could I go)
Seeking a refuge for my soul (for my soul)
Needing a friend (need a friend)
To help me in the end (in the end) (oh won't you tell me)
Where could I go but to the Lord?

James Buchanan Coats

 

[Judges1318]

But the tense of the verb "made partakers" is perfect tense. If it is conditional on something we do in the future, how could it be stated as a perfect tense verb?

The Perfect tense for 'made' means the partaking is a completed and ongoing action that does not need to be repeated.

You have that completed and ongoing action of being a partaker, that does not need to be repeated, IF you have the 'snapshot' action of 'holding fast' the confidence you started out with.

The verb 'hold' is in the 'Second Aorist' Greek tense (which for most intents and purposes is the same as the 'Aorist' tense). And that verb means something that was completed in the past and which exists as a snapshot of that completed action at this moment.

See? You have to have a present snapshot of the 'holding steadfast' that began when you first believed in order to retain the completed and ongoing action of being 'made' a partaker of Christ when you first believed. Lose the snapshot of your past holding steadfast and you lose the completed and ongoing action of being 'made' a partaker, because the partaking is dependent on your steadfastness as indicated by the 'if' in the verse.

For your convenience, here is the link I provided before for you to see how to understand the 'Present' and 'Aorist' Greek tenses: https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained

I hope you can see that the key to the correct cause and effect relationship between 'made partakers' and 'holding fast' is in the tense of verbs that they are. The 'made partakers' is indeed completed and ongoing, as long as you still have the snapshot of the action of holding fast of the word that began in the beginning.

 

[posthuman]

If it was not necessary to teach eternal security to believers, why are there so many texts that teach eternal security to believers in the Bible? If everyone already knew that saved included eternal security, what was the need for the apostles to teach it?

to magnify the great faithfulness of the LORD

 

[posthuman]

In other words, do you think the word saved was understood by everyone, to include unconditional security, automatically, and implicitly understood from the word saved?

Or did the apostles include the eternal security passages in the Bible to instruct people regarding it

the whole book is revealing the person of Christ; knowledge of Him and Him who sent Him is life - He is come that we may have life, abundantly
so the faithfulness of God is magnified in it in order to communicate knowledge of His faithfulness to those who did not know Him, to grow in knowledge of Him

 

[posthuman]

Hebrews 10:23 NIV
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess (why?)

((because,))

lest you sorrow as others who have no hope​

(1 Thessalonians 4:13 nkjv)​

 

[posthuman]

That's why we need to stay in God's grace and not depart from the very thing that is able to keep us to the very end.

sheep can be fools -- you're right, wisdom would be not to wander off into some thicket. and so would love, because why impose on our Shepherd to seeks us out again, put us on His shoulder and carry us back? just because He will not lose one isn't good reason to put Him to the trouble. it's all the more reason to try to stick close to Him, tbh, because that's awesome, and who doesn't want to be near?

 

[posthuman]

We don't hold firmly because he does what was promised.

______________________________________

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,​

and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,​

God our Savior, Who alone is wise,​

be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever.​

Amen!
(Jude 1:24-25) ​

He is strong to save & able to strengthen

 

[posthuman]

Yeah, he would make a typical Democratic Politician, now that you mention it.

i find it's the republican ones that are more prone to abuse religion

 

[posthuman]

If you would like to show some examples where eternal security is taught, you might find there is a warning somewhere in the surrounding text attached to it.

the only one i found in John 10 is verse 26:

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep ​

 

[posthuman]

I'll try to help you understand.

Do you know what it means when someone says, "I have the faith to believe."?

i've never heard anyone say that before today.

people i have experienced would say "i have faith; i believe"

 

[posthuman]

Jesus died for the whole world.

He tasted death for every man and bore the sins of many

 

[posthuman]

Living below, in this old sinful world
Hardly a comfort can afford
Striving alone, to face temptations sore (oh there let me tell you)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Where could I go, oh where could I go?
Seeking a refuge for my soul (for my soul)
Needing a friend, to help me in the end (oh there won't you tell me)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Neighbors are kind, I love them everyone
We get along in sweet accord
But when my soul, needs manna from above (let me tell you)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Where could I go, oh where could I go?
Seeking a refuge for my soul
Needing a friend (a friend) to help me in the end (in the end)
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Life here is grand, with friends I love so dear
Comfort I get from God's own Word
Yet when I face this chilling hand of death
Where could I go but to the Lord?
Where could I go (could I go)
Oh where could I go (could I go)
Seeking a refuge for my soul (for my soul)
Needing a friend (need a friend)
To help me in the end (in the end) (oh won't you tell me)
Where could I go but to the Lord?

James Buchanan Coats

Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation!​

The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. ​

(Matthew 26:41) ​

​

​

if we're praying lest we enter temptation, we're asking God to keep us.
which - we're confessing ourselves incapable of keeping ourselves, looking for Him to act in mercy to strengthen & enable us.

that strikes me as a very-much-not-Pelagian fact _____
increase my faith!

 

[VCO]

But not all are called...

Now here is another verse the differentiates between the MANY of the disciples that were NEVER BORN AGAIN,

And the FEW who were Chosen, that are truly Born Again Christians.


Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' [.That is bitterness towards God, because they do not think they deserve to go to Hades.]
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."


I thing the many and the few are the same as in theses verses:


Matthew 7:13-15 (NASB)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.


And they are the many who are pictured here.


Matthew 7:20-23 (NASB)
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


The few are the ones who have been Born Again, who really do KNOW HIM as their personal LORD and Master.

The many are those who decided they may need a Savior, but remained lord of their OWN LIVES.

 

[Judges1318]

______________________________________

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,​

and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,​

God our Savior, Who alone is wise,​

be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever.​

Amen!​

(Jude 1:24-25) ​

He is strong to save & able to strengthen

Amen.
As long as you want him to do that for you, he will do that. He is able.
That's why we need to remain in him.

 

[mailmandan]

For the same reason the writer did not use the conclusive term "you can't lose your salvation", perhaps?

Perhaps not and your biased argument about losing salvation remains inconclusive.

I guess if you explain why that term is not used you'll have the answer to why he didn't come right out and say the Hebrews were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit".

"Indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" would be conclusive, but the writer of Hebrews did not use that verbiage. Throughout the book of Hebrews, we see those who truly believe contrasted with those who fall short of truly believing.

Galatians does use very conclusive language about them having the Spirit in salvation, and they fell away, and yet instead of just going with what the letter plainly says once saved always saved has to save itself by changing what the Galatians fell from. So I suppose a similar attempt to dodge the obvious would have been invented in the case of the Hebrews, too.

The only thing that's obvious is your bias. As I previously stated in another post, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? You can speculate all you want, but your argument about a done deal loss of salvation is inconclusive.

 

[Judges1318]

people i have experienced would say "i have faith; i believe"

Which is the same as saying, "I know it's true, therefore I will believe in it."

There are those people who know the gospel is true because the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, showed them it's true, but they choose not to believe in what He has shown them is true. They do not retain it in their heart and they are lost.

1 John 5:6,9-12 NAS
6 It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

And there are those who do choose to believe in what the Holy Spirit has testified to them to be true about the Son and they retain it within themselves and are saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Okay, so now the writer is being very explicit about them being saved, yet once saved always saved has to reach for yet another argument crafted to avoid the obvious.

Says you. The writer of Hebrews does not equivocally state that really "saved people" really "lost their salvation." Period. Regardless, you will continue to believe what you want to believe. You appear to be deeply indoctrinated and unteachable.

And we're back to the issue of the unfruitfulness. We both agree that unfruitfulness is the sign of not being saved.

Amen! You are half way home.

But you haven't explained how unfruitfulness has to mean a person was NEVER saved.

Faith without works is dead, remember? In Hebrews 6:7-8, the writer of Hebrews makes a clear contrast between earth that bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated and earth that bears thorns and thistles and is rejected. It's one or the other. You can speculate all you want, but the writer mentions nothing about the earth that bears thorns and thistles previously bearing herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated.

I just see the bias of once saved always saved being read right back into the argument it's trying to prove.

I see a lot of bias from the NOSAS camp and in many cases, it's tied to works righteousness in one form or another.

 

[Judges1318]

"Indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" would be conclusive

Why does being sealed by the Spirit have to mean not being able to be unsealed?
That's not the definition of 'sealed'. You're defining 'sealed' according to Calvinism, not by the pure meaning of the word. That's a denominational bias.

As I previously stated in another post, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? You can speculate all you want, but your argument about a done deal loss of salvation is inconclusive.

I did not say the Galatians lost their salvation. I am on record in this forum as saying that the Galatians show us that He gives those who fall away into unbelief time to come back before he turns them over without repentance to the unbelief they have chosen. We see this same forbearance in the example of the Corinthians and the Hebrew church who were falling away in unbelief from what they first heard, too.

The argument I've been making is Paul tells the Galatians what happens to someone who turns to the law for justification. They lose the benefit of Christ in justification (Galatians 5:4). Obviously, since Paul is making a plea for them to come back, that shows they have not yet been barred from coming back to Christ, as God warns will happen in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-31.