Not By Works

[Judges1318]

Ultimately, we cannot infallibly judge everyone's heart, yet certain people make it pretty obvious they trust in works for salvation, which is a strong indication to me that such a person is not a genuine believer.

What do they have to do with what we have been talking about? We're talking about continuing to trust in Christ for justification, not do works of righteousness related to the law to earn God's declaration of righteousness.

You must continue to trust in Christ for justification to be saved when he returns. I know you don't disagree with that. But for some reason you find it necessary to believe and stress that a person who is genuinely justified in Christ through faith would never stop trusting in Christ for justification. Why does that need to be stressed?

 

[Judges1318]

ou make "keep believing" sound like a difficult burden. I've been a believer for over 20 years now and never once struggled with continuing to believe.

Unlike you, the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church did all struggle with continuing to believe. Would you tell Paul that he is making 'keep believing' sound like a difficult burden when he pours his heart out to them to stay the course and not abandon what they first heard?

Don't project your personal experience about not struggling with unbelief onto the scriptures the way you are. I can see that is creating a bias in you that keeps you from seeing the Bible for what it plainly says. Let other people be different. Especially when the scriptures address those who are having a different experience with believing than you.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

The Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church did all struggle with continuing to believe. Would you tell Paul that he is making 'keep believing' sound like a difficult burden when he pours his heart out to them to stay the course and not abandon what they first heard?

He compared it to a distance race. I know I can go to Hell. Paul knew he could be disqualified. We must follow the Lord our God wholeheartedly.

In family devotions we looked at the 1st 4 letters to the churches in Revelation. Jesus threatens to remove Ephesus’ lamp stand. Smyrna was blameless. Pergamum was in real danger. Thyratira was about to face judgement for their tolerance of wickedness and wicked teaching.

True believers of the true Jesus “serve Him with fear, and rejoice with trembling.” All Truth is held in tension. Lots of Christians are just looking for a get out of jail free card. It won’t work no matter how many millions treat Jesus with the same wishful thinking.

 

[Judges1318]

Lifeless evangelical church today? So which church is full of life in your opinion? Only churches that agree with you?

I don't think there is one.
The people of God who believe in and experience the power and life of the Holy Spirit beyond John's baptism are scattered abroad in many churches and are not grouped into a single denomination that accurately represents belief in the power and life of the Holy Spirit. That will not happen until the end of the age when Christ returns.

Acts 8:14-16 NAS
14Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:1-5 NAS
Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them


Let's get back to the plain words of the Bible and start teaching and leading people into the Holy Spirit beyond that of simply having Him lifelessly inside of you in salvation. The world will never take a weak, powerless church seriously, which is why they don't take us seriously. Especially as long as we, instead of living in power, divide ourselves over stupid, meaningless doctrines, like once saved always saved.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NAS
4and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Any takers? Or are we just going to make these passages go away through the teachings of our inglorious church theologians? Yes, that's it. Let's just let our faith rest on the wisdom of men and not on the power of God. It's safer that way. And more believable.

 

[Judges1318]

Lots of Christians are just looking for a get out of jail free card. It won’t work no matter how many millions treat Jesus with the same wishful thinking.

Ultimately, truth is never popular.
Generally speaking, if what one believes is really popular and accepted by many, and does not solicit the disdain of the masses, it probably is not the truth.

 

[EleventhHour]

Lots of Christians are just looking for a get out of jail free card.

I just wonder to myself, as I do some work on my computer and flip in and out of CC, how people can just nullify the work of the cross

and make it of no effect, in print for everyone to see, even Jesus.... Jesus who died on the cross and suffered beyond human

comprehension to give those who trust in Him for "it" "the free gift of salvation" so demeaned>>>> truly incomprehensible.

This accusation against Christ Jesus, that we must add to His WORK, and that we are still in bondage and straddling some imaginary concocted lane of maybe saved or maybe not saved due to our effort..... is truly repugnant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He compared it to a distance race. I know I can go to Hell. Paul knew he could be disqualified. We must follow the Lord our God wholeheartedly.

In family devotions we looked at the 1st 4 letters to the churches in Revelation. Jesus threatens to remove Ephesus’ lamp stand. Smyrna was blameless. Pergamum was in real danger. Thyratira was about to face judgement for their tolerance of wickedness and wicked teaching.

True believers of the true Jesus “serve Him with fear, and rejoice with trembling.” All Truth is held in tension. Lots of Christians are just looking for a get out of jail free card. It won’t work no matter how many millions treat Jesus with the same wishful thinking.

Grace = get out of jail at gods expense. (No such thing as free)

you should try it, otherwise your gonna be left to your own expense, which is an expense you are unable to pay

 

[Judges1318]

You are a one string banjo: "Lose salvation" - plink, plink.

Yep.
Very simple.
The way God intended.
If you believe today, you are saved today.
If you don't believe today, you are not saved today.

I think it's time to stop letting salaried pastors, desperate for sermon material, over think and complicate the scriptures and lead us away from the simple truths that are there.

This problem is directly related to the church, as a whole, not having more than just the indwelling Spirit in salvation. Lifeless pastors and teachers go in search of dynamic teachings and understandings and seek the life of God in those instead of just living in the power and life of the Spirit the way we're supposed to. Do you think it any surprise that 'Cessationism' (the end of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit) is a prominent doctrine of the same reformers who gave us 'once saved always saved'?

 

[posthuman]

I agree with Posthuman, they are addressing, all the Disciples of Jesus Christ, however SOME OF THEM ARE NOT SAVED.

God knows who are sheep and who are wolves. but i think that in the different congregations, in different times, they had different errors in their thinking and/or actions. they didn't have 'different gospels' they were different people - with different experiences and different degrees and colors of wisdom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep.
Very simple.
The way God intended.
If you believe today, you are saved today.
If you don't believe today, you are not saved today.

I think it's time to stop letting salaried pastors, desperate for sermon material, over think and complicate the scriptures and lead us away from the simple truths that are there.

This problem is directly related to the church, as a whole, not having more than just the indwelling Spirit in salvation. Lifeless pastors and teachers go in search of dynamic teachings and understandings and seek the life of God in those instead of just living in the power and life of the Spirit the way we're supposed to. Do you think it any surprise that 'Cessationism' (the end of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit) is a prominent doctrine of the same reformers who gave us 'once saved always saved'?

Yep, god is limited, he has no capacity to know who will fully believe, bs wish washy faith that never endures, so,he gives his (eternal life) to people mistakenly and has to take it back when they walk away

face it ralph, you have not changed a bit

 

[Judges1318]

I experienced nothing but doubt, along with fear and bondage to IN-security when I subscribed to NOSAS while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago.

The problem is, you believed in the equally false doctrine of works salvation, which is not what we've been talking about, but which you assail as if it is.

As I've pointed out, you and I are discussing losing your justification before God because you no longer trust in Christ for that justification, not because you are not doing enough works to earn justification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem is, you believed in the equally false doctrine of works salvation, which is not what we've been talking about, but which you assail as if it is.

As I've pointed out, you and I are discussing losing your justification before God because you no longer trust in Christ for that justification, not because you are not doing enough works to earn justification.

No, we are discussing your legalistic works based justification by your own power. Not by gods power, you have it all wrong, like you always have

 

[blue_ladybug]

No, we are discussing your legalistic works based justification by your own power. Not by gods power, you have it all wrong, like you always have

I'ma smack that stupid Ipod of yours.

lol

 

[Judges1318]

Bottom line: ONLY believers are saved.

Yep, that's what I'm saying.
You have to continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life in the Son. That's what the Bible says. No need to complicate it with over-thought doctrines of men that end up leading us away from that simple truth and make the plain words of the Bible not really mean what they say.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yep, that's what I'm saying.
You have to continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life in the Son. That's what the Bible says. No need to complicate it with over-thought doctrines of men that end up leading us away from that simple truth and make the plain words of the Bible not really mean what they say.

oh brother ..... let us just make it up as we go along

 

[EleventhHour]

I'ma smack that stupid Ipod of yours.

lol

I see some more important places the could use some smacking!!

 

[Judges1318]

I have had many days in my early walk with our LORD where I did not understand Him , days when I thought I could lose my Salvation , or had lost my Salvation

You only have to fear losing your justification in Christ if you stop believing that He is the only way to be justified before the Father.

To doubt our LORD is to trust in ourselves

...or...........to doubt our Lord is to trust in anything else. Which the believing Galatians fell away to. Justification only comes through faith in the forgiveness of God, not works, or anything else. That is what we are not to doubt or disbelieve. You are not condemned by not believing in 'once saved always saved'. You are condemned by not believing that having your sins forgiven by faith in Christ is the only way to be declared righteous before God.

 

[gb9]

oh brother ..... let us just make it up as we go along

that is what legalism does. it starts in a good place, then it keeps talking. adding conditions, then adding other conditions to be sure the other conditions in the proper place.

 

[Judges1318]

Some believe that continuance in faith is NOT synonomous with self maintained faith.

Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14 seem to indicate a holding fast to confidence that is not self maintained, but rather a result of what God has already done and is doing.

That is what Calvinism teaches.
It says your believing is just there. You don't do it. It's just there because God wants it to be there, because you were purposely chosen ahead of time for that to happen to you, irregardless of your say in the matter, while others have purposely been not chosen to have that happen to them.

Like I say, what a meaningless, inglorious, horrible gospel.
Calvinism is saying God does not win the love of his creation, but has to manufacture it in them without any input from them.

 

[VCO]

Oh boy not you too!!! ....LOL

What do you mean, your post made NO sense to me ? ? ?

If you are Questioning the FACT that some Disciples are not SAVED, that is obvious. The GREEK WORD only means a follower, not a Saved Follower.

John 6:66 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


The were NEVER Born Again, therefore they were NEVER SAVED, and still JOHN called the disciples which only means Follower, which has no length of TIME involved with it, even for a short time, and no longer followed him.

Therefore OSAS, is STILL RELEVANT TO ALL BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS, because they were sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT.

This VERSE IS RELEVANT TO ALL who have RECEIVED HIM AS LORD which means MASTER:


1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


That is exactly what the unsaved disciples were LACKING.