Not By Works

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dcontroversal said:
Who produces the fruit...US or CHRIST?

Does the ROOT produce the FRUIT or the BRANCHES?

The root "JESUS" produces the FRUIT, the branches "SAVED" but bear the fruit that HE produces in us as a LIVING sacrifice...

ALL glory goes to GOD....NONE to US!
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Christ produces the fruit in us, but we do yield to Christ...we pray, we read the Word, we walk in the Spirit...and we see the fruit of His Spirit in us.
He is the true Vine, we are the branches-He tells us to remain in Him, we cannot bear fruit without doing so👌
 
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VCO said:
Like I said, WE conservative evangelical do not agree with all the points of the Calvinist TULIP. So here is my personal objections:

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)​
Unconditional Election​
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)​
Irresistible Grace​
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)​
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

Here are the TWO that I disagree with and why?

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

In the section on Unconditional Election, I object to the idea that GOD chooses us without regard of our choice, and their statement:
Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Their concept of God randomly choosing without regard of us Choosing whom we will Serve, not only disregards the following verse, but also makes the STATEMENT that Joshua said, totally irrelevant.

Joshua 24:14-16 (NKJV)
14 "Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD!
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
16 So the people answered and said: "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;

And it contradicts these VERSES in in Romans say:

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The other issue is their insistance that GOD does not look down thru time, to see who might choose HIM; HOW DO THEY KNOW? Besides I personally have a POSSIBILITY that I think it is entirely Possible, so hold on to your hat. I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE HEARD THIS THEORY BEFORE: HE CALLS HIMSELF THEE I AM! Not the I Was, I AM, I Will Be. I AM is His NAME that HE told Moses to Tell the People. I think that is a REFERENCE that GOD EXISTS OUT SIDE OF TIME ITSELF, and in fact HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME as we know it to be. It says HE declares the END FROM THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTS in EVERY TIME FRAME THAT WE TRAVEL THROUGH. HE is not a created being traveling Through time as we Know it. HE IS THE I AM! IF TIME IS ONLY FOR US BEINGS INSIDE OF IT, WHAT CONSTITUTES TIME FOR AN ETERNAL, ALL POWERFUL BEING, SUCH AS GOD. He can write our names in the book of life before the foundation of the earth, because HE is present at each and every believer's conversion, all at the same instant as went HE wrote our names in the book of life. Omnipresent does not ONLY REFER TO EVERY SQUARE INCH OF THE UNIVERSE AND HEAVEN AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK IT REFERS TO EVERY SECOND OF TIME SIMULTANEOUSLY, and LITERALLY. Now think about that theory, and watch how much bigger GOD really is to you personally, and how TOTALLY WE THEN WE CAN ASSUME HE ACTUALLY IS. GOD IS ALL POWERFUL, HE IS ALL KNOWING, HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME ITSELF, HE THE ONE THAT NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM, Etc., Etc., Etc. That is my personal Theory, but it KEEPS me in AWE of GOD.

Limited Atonement: is another one of the Five Points of Calvinism that I do not think they are Absolutely Correct. However not as much as Unconditional Election. In Limited Atonement, they made the FIRST COMMENT, that I think it is totally in Error, which is: Jesus died only for the elect. That statement Contradicts what HE has said in the BIBLE.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


That means the ONLY SIN THAT WAS NOT PAID FOR ON THE CROSS IS "BLASPHEMING THE HOLY SPIRIT" My understanding of what is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit" actually is, to Blaspheme HIS work of Getting us to Believe our Sins were bought and paid for on the CROSS, THUS THOSE PEOPLE ARE IN UNBELIEF. And Yes it says to those who came to the conclusion that HE did those miracles by the power of Devil, they had that SAME KIND OF UNBELIEF. Therefore UNBELIEF is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit who empowers us to BELIEVE. Every other SIN was Paid for on the CROSS of JESUS. Therefore I believe that the ONLY SIN Not Paid for on the CROSS is UNBELIEF. However, some people think that Head Knowledge is enough to be SAVED, but the Bible says in Rom. 10:8-10 above, IT MUST BE HEART (Human Spirit) Knowledge.
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You believe in irresistable grace? It seems to me that if grace is irresistable, then some are not offered grace, for if everyone was offered grace and it was irresistable, everyone would be saved.

For this reason I do not believe the I in tulip. Unless I misunderstand.
 
Discern said:
True. Apostasy is also addressed in 1 Timothy 4 starting in verse 1
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Yep...and still directed at believers that stand off or apart from the truth which is what the word means......

Those that give heed to false doctrines are standing off or apart from the truth

MOST so called believers have embraced an embellished salvation which is false and not biblical
 
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dcontroversal said:
Yep...and still directed at believers that stand off or apart from the truth which is what the word means......

Those that give heed to false doctrines are standing off or apart from the truth

MOST so called believers have embraced an embellished salvation which is false and not biblical
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But is it referring to them as believers?
 
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Butterflyyy said:
A professing Christian could be faithful or apostate (have left the true way), as I understand. I'm not sure I know what you mean by this question...
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Some only APPEAR to be Christians They are in a church, even as ministers sometimes, but never converted.

I knew a pastor who was a pastor for many years before he was converted. He had to stand up and tell his flock he had just gotten saved.

If a person is a professing Christian, but not born from above, they may go out from us

We do not know who is saved or not. We leave that up to God to DISCERN
 
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Butterflyyy said:
Christ produces the fruit in us, but we do yield to Christ...we pray, we read the Word, we walk in the Spirit...and we see the fruit of His Spirit in us.
He is the true Vine, we are the branches-He tells us to remain in Him, we cannot bear fruit without doing so👌
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Obviously......and the whole context of that discourse is bearing fruit, not works to keep salvation....and note....in that whole discourse it is MEN that purge trees and burn branches.....

ALL works shall be tried by fire...those who works are burnt are still saved so as by fire......
 
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Butterflyyy said:
In 1 Tim if some fall away from the faith then...
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It does not say they fall away....it uses the word depart (KING JIMMY translation of the GREEK word) which actually means to STAND OFF from or to STAND apart from......and again the context is false TEACHERS that STAND OFF from the TRUTH peddling the LIES found in VERSE 3...

Think about the present day and the false teachers in false religions which peddle

a. Forbidding marriage
b. Denying the right to particular foods....
 
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dcontroversal said:
Yep...and still directed at believers that stand off or apart from the truth which is what the word means......

Those that give heed to false doctrines are standing off or apart from the truth

MOST so called believers have embraced an embellished salvation which is false and not biblical
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People who preach the law, really need to read study the Book of Hebrews more thoroughly to see why the old covenant law has become, Why a change in the law required a change in priesthood and Calvinists need to read Ephesians 4:
Unity in the Body
…10He who descended is the very one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things. 11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,…
Berean Study Bible

What are the works of the Body of Christ?

Matthew 28:19) "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” NIV
Why? So those not preordained can be saved too. What are the first two new commandments?
Mark 12:
29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30) and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31) The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”…
Berean Study Bible
 
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Discern said:
I predict Limited Atonement and irresistible grace are the ones you don’t agree with.
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Oh I believe in Irresistible Grace, if it had not been for that, my depression was so BAD that I would have tried a Fourth Time at Suicide and would have succeeded. But Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election, I have a problem accepting.
 
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Butterflyyy said:
Christ produces the fruit in us, but we do yield to Christ...we pray, we read the Word, we walk in the Spirit...and we see the fruit of His Spirit in us.


He is the true Vine, we are the branches-He tells us to remain in Him, we cannot bear fruit without doing so👌
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Amen.
This is of faith, and if genuine when we pray we believe He hears, when we read the inspired written word we know it's True and when we walk in the spirit, it would mean our spirit is already quickened. (made alive)
Though many believe they have been made new and are in Christ, He never knew them.


_________

I typed this out awhile ago but I believe the verse you bring up has more to do with the goat among sheep or wheat among tares.... the braches that bare fruit and those completely void of fruit....

I believe the timing of this lesson and Judas is important.

___________

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Two sorts of branches


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"



______

I believe in me, would be those in the church, the body of Christ....

Some of which are not actually born again but have many supposed wonderful works to try to point to....

I believe these verses have absolutely nothing to do with a born again child of God, being thrown into fire...
 
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BillG said:
If a person worries about losing salvation then I suggest they have not lost it.

If they leave the faith as you suggest then they would not worry because they have lost nothing.
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I go by this:

Hebrews 12:14-17 KJV
" 14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."

He forfeited the inheritance in favor of fleshly desire. Many say that the person who does that won't care that he has done that. But as we can see in the above passage, Esau shows us that's not necessarily true.

BillG said:
A lot of believers are trusting in Jesus yet are so worried they will lose their salvation.
Why do you think that is?
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Any believer who is worried that they might lose their salvation probably doesn't know that the only way they can lose justification in Christ is to reject Christ altogether. The day to day struggles with sin of the person who is continuing to trust in Christ can not separate them from Christ. He remains faithful when we are faithless (but still trusting in Christ). He'll only deny us if we deny him in unbelief.

Only going back to unbelief and staying there can separate the believer from Christ. Unbelief can happen by either deliberately choosing to no longer believe in Christ (perhaps because of the influence of false doctrines--like what happened to the Corinthians and the Galatians), or by having the heart hardened by the deceitfulness of unrepentant sin.

BillG said:
What would you say to a person who expressed this to you?
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You only have to worry about your salvation if you have gone back to, or are contemplating returning to, unbelief.
And if you are tempted to go back to unbelief, take it to God in honest prayer. It's his job to give you every encouragement available to keep you trusting in Christ. He will reach out to help you.
 
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