Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull said:
Whats sickening is how you trample the grace of God. Christs work on the cross, and Gods unselfish love, mercy and grace given to his children. And turn it into some legalistic jumbo jumbo, thinking anything you do could cause God to say, Yep. He earns my love and my salvation. So I will nt take it from him.

The law has not yet trained you, Like many of you, You water down the law thinking you are ok. When if you saw the law for what it was. you would be on your knees like the tax collector. (Or have gotten on your knees) and not continually pumping your chest. Like the pharisee you are.
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Nothing you written here addresses anything in the post you responded to.
 
EleventhHour said:
That the letter is written with believers in mind is not in question, so I entreat once again because I loathe false doctrine that much,
exegete and prove loss of salvation?

Obviously "willful sin" is a weak argument unless you are perfect?

As well how much "willful sin" does it take ...if you are honest you have not answer..... are you honest?
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Address the facts of the post please.
 
VCO said:
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


JESUS DID IT ALL, COMPLETELY SAVING US! Why do you want to ROB the GLORY that TOTALLY BELONGS TO HIM ? ? ?

The only PURE motive for SERVING HIM, is strictly because We LOVE HIM with the LOVE HE PUT IN US.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
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Amen! But none of these verses are the subject. Hebrews chapter 10 and the surrounding context and text are. Address the points of the post please.


Verse 26 says they received the knowledge of the truth. Couple that with The writer through the Holy Spirit including himself and all those in the congregation (brethren) in the admonition. He calls them brethren in verse 19 having their hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with the pure water.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised). And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(Heb 10:19-25 KJV)


Receiving the knowledge of the truth implies they received Christ. He and they were saved having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:26 For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As he continues in this admonition, verse 29 states they, those who sinned willfuly after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These people were sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water. But if they sinned willfuly they counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace. Therefore there remains no sacrifice for their sins as verse 26 states. If there is no sacrifice for sin They are saved no longer.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Then the writer through the Holy Spirit continues to speak to these who are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water and confirms that they also have been illuminated.

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Then in verse 35 the writer exhorts these illuminated that are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water not to cast away their confidence (faith).

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Then the writer admonishes them that they must not draw back from their confidence (faith). They can't draw back if they were not in a place to draw back from in the first.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Then exhorts them and himself by saying we are not them who draw back but them who believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 
dcontroversal said:
Yeah...AU prices.....but.....when I am allowed to work I make almost $2500 a week.....so....not bad really!
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what do you do for work again? i dont make that even in a month that you make in a week.

oh well maybe i will get ran over by a bus tonight so i dont have to worry about finances and affording a family.

its friday afternoon here is what i got: coffee, milk and water :sleep: im feeling like that grumpy man on the porch shaking his fist at everything lolz. i think i might of had a psychological addiction to alcohol thats why i was feeling so anxious. i never drank daily only on weekend and not even like passout much
 
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lightbearer said:
Heb 10:26 For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As he continues in this admonition, verse 29 states they, those who sinned willfuly after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These people were sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water. But if they sinned willfuly they counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace. Therefore there remains no sacrifice for their sins as verse 26 states. If there is no sacrifice for sin They are saved no longer.
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Absolutely and completely ridiculous!!!!

And I will explain later....because first I need to go punch a wall or head for a 5k run so I do not break my hand which I still need in this life.
 
lightbearer said:
Amen! But none of these verses are the subject. Hebrews chapter 10 and the surrounding context and text are. Address the points of the post please.


Verse 26 says they received the knowledge of the truth. Couple that with The writer through the Holy Spirit including himself and all those in the congregation (brethren) in the admonition. He calls them brethren in verse 19 having their hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with the pure water.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised). And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(Heb 10:19-25 KJV)


Receiving the knowledge of the truth implies they received Christ. He and they were saved having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:26 For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As he continues in this admonition, verse 29 states they, those who sinned willfuly after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These people were sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water. But if they sinned willfuly they counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace. Therefore there remains no sacrifice for their sins as verse 26 states. If there is no sacrifice for sin They are saved no longer.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Then the writer through the Holy Spirit continues to speak to these who are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water and confirms that they also have been illuminated.

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Then in verse 35 the writer exhorts these illuminated that are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water not to cast away their confidence (faith).

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Then the writer admonishes them that they must not draw back from their confidence (faith). They can't draw back if they were not in a place to draw back from in the first.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Then exhorts them and himself by saying we are not them who draw back but them who believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
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are you one of those people who believe you can lose salvation but then turn around and get it back?
 
lightbearer said:
As he continues in this admonition, verse 29 states they, those who sinned willfuly after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These people were sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water. But if they sinned willfuly they counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace. Therefore there remains no sacrifice for their sins as verse 26 states. If there is no sacrifice for sin They are saved no longer.
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Willful sin is a reference to being under the old system of laws.

Do you understand that if you read the old testament laws there was no sacrifice for sin that was committed willfully... there were no sacrifices for sins committed intentionally.

According to Hebrews, even Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) only covers 'sins of ignorance':

'But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance' (Heb 9:7, NIV)

It would indeed seem that Old Testament sacrifices did not cover anything beyond 'sins of ignorance'.

Get it now?
 
EleventhHour said:
That the letter is written with believers in mind is not in question, so I entreat once again because I loathe false doctrine that much,
exegete and prove loss of salvation?

Obviously "willful sin" is a weak argument unless you are perfect?

As well how much "willful sin" does it take ...if you are honest you have not answer..... are you honest?
Click to expand...
Address the facts of the post please.
EleventhHour said:
Which one?
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Here it was edited to answer your questions pertaining to the scripture and the facts shared about it....


Receiving the knowledge of the truth implies they received Christ. He and they were saved, having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water as verses 19-21 show.

Heb 10:26 For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

SIN IS PLURAL IN VERSE 26 AND IS IN THE PRESENT ACTIVE STATE. A BETTER TRANSLATION MIGHT BE SINNING WILLFULY.

No more sacrifice for sins means they are not saved. Please watch as this unfolds as the writter continues.

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(Heb 10:27-28 KJV)

Those who are sinning willfully have no sacrifice for sins. All they have is a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The adversaries, those who sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Having their hearts sprinkled from the evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water shall be DEVOURED.

As he continues in this admonition, verse 29 states they, those who sinning willfuly after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These people were sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water. But if they sinned willfuly they counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace. Therefore there remains no sacrifice for their sins as verse 26 states. If there is no sacrifice for sin They are saved no longer and they shall be devoured as verse 27 states.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Then the writer through the Holy Spirit continues to speak to these who are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water in edifying them and confirms that they also have been illuminated.

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Then in verse 35 the writer exhorts these illuminated that are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water not to cast away their confidence (faith).

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Then the writer admonishes them that they must not draw back, from their confidence (faith). THEY CAN'T DRAW BACK UNLESS THEY WEE IN A PLACE TO DRAW BACK FROM TO BEGIN WITH.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Then exhorts them and himself by saying we are not them who draw back in Sinning willfuly but them who believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 
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EleventhHour said:
All your high sounding words, sentiments and grand notions about love are meaningless apart from the truth of Gospel.

Your works, your love, your devotion, your kindness, do not save!
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Wen we are despised and rejected of men we find the Lord alone without distractions. It was on my mind this morning, was prepared to go out with Joy.
 
lightbearer said:
Address the facts of the post please.
Here it was edited to answer your questions pertaining to the scripture and the facts shared about it....


Receiving the knowledge of the truth implies they received Christ. He and they were saved, having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water as verses 19-21 show.

Heb 10:26 For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

SIN IS PLURAL IN VERSE 26 AND IS IN THE PRESENT ACTIVE STATE. A BETTER TRANSLATION MIGHT BE SINNING WILLFULY.

No more sacrifice for sins means they are not saved. Please watch as this unfolds as the writter continues.

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(Heb 10:27-28 KJV)

Those who are sinning willfully have no sacrifice for sins. All they have is a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The adversaries, those who sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Having their hearts sprinkled from the evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water shall be DEVOURED.

As he continues in this admonition, verse 29 states they, those who sinning willfuly after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These people were sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water. But if they sinned willfuly they counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace. Therefore there remains no sacrifice for their sins as verse 26 states. If there is no sacrifice for sin They are saved no longer and they shall be devoured as verse 27 states.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Then the writer through the Holy Spirit continues to speak to these who are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water in edifying them and confirms that they also have been illuminated.

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Then in verse 35 the writer exhorts these illuminated that are sanctified (saved) having their hearts spinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water not to cast away their confidence (faith).

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Then the writer admonishes them that they must not draw back, from their confidence (faith). THEY CAN'T DRAW BACK UNLESS THEY WEE IN A PLACE TO DRAW BACK FROM TO BEGIN WITH.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Then exhorts them and himself by saying we are not them who draw back in Sinning willfuly but them who believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
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I have replied and explained your woefully wrong understanding of willful sin.

The writer is not speaking to the new covenant capisci?
Your turn for rebuttal.
 
Lightskin said:
Do you work to maintain your salvation? If so, what was it about Christ’s death and resurrection that wasn’t good enough?
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It will be very telling if there is a response...will @lightbearer be able to deal with the implications of this sad, bereft, incomplete sacrifice ...where sin can exceed the work of the cross and resurrection, when scripture states the exact opposite.
 
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lightbearer said:
Nothing you written here addresses anything in the post you responded to.
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Galatians 3:25 (NIV)
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 6:14-15 (HCSB)
14 For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!

Romans 3:19-20 (NCV)
19 We know that the law’s commands are for those who have the law. This stops all excuses and brings the whole world under God’s judgment,
20 because no one can be made right with God by following the law. The law only shows us our sin.

Galatians 4:21 (HCSB)
21 Tell me, those of you who want to be under the law, don’t you hear the law?

Hebrews 9:22-28 (ESV)
22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Revelation 13:6-8 (HCSB)
6 He {Antichrist} began to speak blasphemies against God: to blaspheme His name and His dwelling—those who dwell in heaven.
7 And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. He was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.
8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 2:16 (HCSB)
16 know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.
 
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