Not By Works

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Macabeus said:
But they are indistinguishable from the wheat until the wheat buds. A lot depends on what Jesus is communicating there.
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The field is the world, and you have the wheat planted before the Tares. Important point here.

Believers infiltrate the world, and Tares infiltrate what? They don’t infiltrate the world, that is their natural habitat. They infiltrate the church.
 
gb9 said:
the issue is this- you think ( wrongly) that regeneration means one starts instantly bearing fruit ( and we know how the fruit thing went for you, empty apple buckets and all).

so, I will leave this thread, and you, with this-

when 2 people come to Christ, one can instantly show a massive transformation , one can struggle with breaking free of certain sins for years.

if both are true believers , both are saved, even though it does not look the same.

that is why lordship salvation is bunk.

gb9 out.
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Was reminded of a precious verse in another forum.

It is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure
 
UnderGrace said:
I like this ... sums it up nicely!! :cool:
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Does not change the fact that God works in believers both to will and to do of His Good pleasure. It may take time, but God’s sheep get out of the mud sooner or later. God not only forgave Him but also cleansed Him giving him a clean heart and also renewed a right spirit within him

As a believer, David was not wrong to ask to be be cleansed, heart changed, and a right spirit renewed. Because he had dirtied himself and had harmed his fellowship with God, putting blood guilt into his conscience, which guilt puts a self imposed, not God imposed hindrance between us and God
 
eternally-gratefull said:
My point was that wheat is any unbeliever, not just false churches, but also false religions and atheists. as the poster i responded to seemed to suggest.
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Well I can only go by the scripture, it seems to me that if tares could be atheists etc., the fact that they look alike is a problem.

V. 26: But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. The tares were not noticeable until the time when their fruit began to appear. This means that they have been growing for some time before the servants became aware of their presence in the field. ‘Where do these tares come from?’ they asked the master. This implies that these tares bear a very close resemblance to the wheat.

Atheists typically in my experience announce themselves quite clearly.

Is this tied to your eschatology?
 
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UnderGrace said:
Well I can only go by the scripture, it seems to me that if tares could be atheists etc., the fact that they look alike is a problem.

V. 26: But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. The tares were not noticeable until the time when their fruit began to appear. This means that they have been growing for some time before the servants became aware of their presence in the field. ‘Where do these tares come from?’ they asked the master. This implies that these tares bear a very close resemblance to the wheat.

Atheists typically in my experience announce themselves quite clearly.

Is this tied to your eschatology?
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Again look at johns point about baptism of spirit and fire, wheat barn, fire burned
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Again look at johns point about baptism of spirit and fire, wheat barn, fire burned
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Yes I understand this... I think my confusion lies with who are the tares.
It seems to me the tares are the ones that in the end do not bear fruit because they never could being a weed.
So what is Jesus contrasting and comparing here.

I really do not think it is the world versus the believer, it seems to me to be the false teachers vis a vis the believer.
 
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UnderGrace said:
Yes I understand this... I think my confusion lies with who are the tares.
It seems to me the tares are the ones that in the end do not bear fruit because they never could being a weed.
So what is Jesus contrasting and comparing here.

I really do not think it is the world versus the believer, it seems to me to be the false teachers vis a vis the believer.
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I think tares are unbelievers, that god is saying we can not just remove unbelievers, it would be like removing tares, the wheat would be affected.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
I think tares are unbelievers, that god is saying we can not just remove unbelievers, it would be like removing tares, the wheat would be affected.
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I see:unsure:

Well in all honestly I do find the more heretical view ;) that the wheat is the regenerated spirit and the tares is the flesh.
Does it have merit do you think?
 
TooFastTurtle said:
Clarification: I did not mean that tares were saved. What I meant was that Macabeus made a good point that the wheat and the tares parable is a good example of people going out from among us, yet they were not of us to begin with.

The tares are visibly part of the church, yet were never saved to begin with (tares).

Hope you understand me better now. I meant that the people who went out from among us are tares who were never saved. That is how I viewed Macabeus as saying it.
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In the First John passage, do you notice it says “ if they were of us, they would have continued with us, but now it is manifested that they were not of us.

This is the glorious truth of perserverance. But this is actually not related to the wheat and Tares parable, because the unbelievers in 1 John are manifested by their going out, the Tares remain and are removed at the end of the age

So you have some that splinter off into false teachings, and others that are remaining as Tares until the end of the age.

Both groups will be burned like chaff

But some may appear to fall into this category, and have all the visible marks of a tare, yet be regenerated. Perhaps that is why it is said, wait till the harvest lest you uproot some of the wheat.

Just a thought
 
gb9 said:
the issue is this- you think ( wrongly) that regeneration means one starts instantly bearing fruit ( and we know how the fruit thing went for you, empty apple buckets and all).

so, I will leave this thread, and you, with this-

when 2 people come to Christ, one can instantly show a massive transformation , one can struggle with breaking free of certain sins for years.

if both are true believers , both are saved, even though it does not look the same.

that is why lordship salvation is bunk.

gb9 out.
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Ha 5 people did not read my posts.

I never said that. What I said is it does not necessarily take a prerequisite ammount of time to bear fruit. In reply to the statement “it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear ANYTHING. It takes etc is an indicative statement, which means that this is a fact. No use of the word sometimes. Just a blanket statement applied to everyone. Necessary to reach some point of Christian maturity before a Christian can bear any fruit. This is what DC said. I said not necessarily so. Prove me wrong with scripture.

saying that a believer cannot bear fruit until he or she has reached x ammount of maturity is putting God in a box
 
UnderGrace said:
Well I can only go by the scripture, it seems to me that if tares could be atheists etc., the fact that they look alike is a problem.

V. 26: But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. The tares were not noticeable until the time when their fruit began to appear. This means that they have been growing for some time before the servants became aware of their presence in the field. ‘Where do these tares come from?’ they asked the master. This implies that these tares bear a very close resemblance to the wheat.

Atheists typically in my experience announce themselves quite clearly.
Click to expand...
When people are still babies and children spiritual differences are not immediately seen. I think the grain is human life, and sowing is us being put into flesh form to grow and develop. At a certain stage of development, the godly and the ungodly start to differ. I take the grain being human life from Jesus comparing His life in flesh to a seed of wheat. At the end of their lives the godly and the ungodly are separated and judged for their works, the wheat is put into the barn (heaven) and the tares are burnt (hell). It's a really simple parable and I'm the first to be guilty of overthinking but I think overanalyzing this one will only lead us away from the truth.
 
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SoulWeaver said:
When people are still babies and children spiritual differences are not immediately seen. I think the grain is human life, and sowing is us being put into flesh form to grow and develop. At a certain stage of development, the godly and the ungodly start to differ. I take the grain being human life from Jesus comparing His life in flesh to a seed of wheat. At the end of their lives the godly and the ungodly are separated and judged for their works, the wheat is put into the barn (heaven) and the tares are burnt (hell). It's a really simple parable and I'm the first to be guilty of overthinking but I think overanalyzing this one will only lead us away from the truth.
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Perhaps, though we must admit that some born again believers have transformations/conversions that changes them completely very quickly

Could it be more that the tare is able imitate so well the wheat and it is only towards the end where the wheat turns yellow and bears fruit that the difference is completely discernible?

:D over analyzing, reading too much into a parable can be a problem for sure... my brain likes the KISS method.....keep is simple stupid!!
 
dcontroversal said:
By the way...did you see the above post and HOW this whole deal got started....If I remember right it started with junior taking exception to me saying that a period of growth and maturity is required before one bears fruit........anyway......NO longer care what HE has to say....I am still looking for Tomatoes, Apple trees, Black Berry plants and Strawberry plants that INSTANTLY produce.........do you know where DC putI can buy some?
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This is what I objected to in case anyone is confused. DC put a period of growth and maturity as a requirement for bearing fruit. Maturity takes years. So according to DC, you have to be saved for years to bear fruit

Notice how he uses nature to interpret scripture? Should I apply the gestation period of a natural birth to the new birth, like he appliesthe period of time for natural fruit to bearing spiritual fruit

GB9 is the one who brought it up. So don’t fault me for addressing it again
 
UnderGrace said:
Perhaps, though we must admit that some born again believers have transformations/conversions that changes them completely very quickly

Could it be more that the tare is able imitate so well the wheat and it is only towards the end where the wheat turns yellow and bears fruit that the difference is completely discernible?

:D over analyzing, reading too much into a parable can be a problem for sure... my brain likes the KISS method.....keep is simple stupid!!
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The reason why I rather believe this addresses all people globally is the other parables where unbelievers and believers are lumped together, and then judged. They get divided into 2 groups, often God being stated as their owner or master, because in the end everyone gives account to Him. Take the parable of the net (this definitely includes the world, and all the fish is separated into 2 groups), the parable of the faithful and wicked servant, the parable about talants. There are ultimately 2 groups in judgment, the rewarded and the punished. I think the "imposter" believers are simply unbelievers.

Also that verse where it says, that Jesus knew who would not believe (referring to Judas Iscariot, who was one of the "church" members). So I believe there are only 2 groups, believers and unbelievers, rather than 3 groups: real believers, fake believers and the unbelievers.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 
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