Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

I have come to understand this completely in the past couple years or so.

Amen

Awesome and I am glad HAHHA

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree

But to say someone can have true saving faith, yet have no fruit which results in that faith. Is just wrong.

Again, I may not see the works. It does not mean they are not their, or even that I must see them.

A dog stops being a dog. He changes, and acts diffentrly, that is works.

If the dog continues to act like a dog. Well then they are still a dog. And have not yet been saved.

But as you say, Many people can do many works and even look religious. But have never even met god.. So using works to determine if a perosn is saved or not is a fautly endeavor.

Lets not be fruit inspectors. Lets be fruit producers.. (allowing God to work in us to produce fruit)

I disagree for the reason dCon stated above.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree for the reason dCon stated above.

You disagree with James?

How can a person be born of God and not change one part of his life? I am sorry But I will not agree a person can be born of God and have zero works..

His faith is dead. And that faith can not save.

 

[OneOfHis]

Maybe the hiccup is conflating fruit with works?


Works are the fruit He works in us manifesting outwardly.


What stands between works and fruit is a flesh that only wants pleasure and wants to avoid hardship.


All of His have some fruit being worked inwardly, wether or not it manifests can not and will not save or keep saved.

I'm thinking we can agree on that?

 

[UnderGrace]

You disagree with James?

How can a person be born of God and not change one part of his life? I am sorry But I will not agree a person can be born of God and have zero works..

His faith is dead. And that faith can not save.

Well we have done the James thing in the past EG....I do not agree that James states works will be automatic, what I read is that we are called to works to show men our new status in Christ and this is a choice because James would not have written what he wrote if works just happened.

Works need a physical body because faith cannot be seen.

 

[UnderGrace]

You disagree with James?

How can a person be born of God and not change one part of his life? I am sorry But I will not agree a person can be born of God and have zero works..

His faith is dead. And that faith can not save.

EG, I am not sure what you mean.

What was dead was once alive.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well we have done the James thing in the past EG....I do not agree that James states works will be automatic, what I read is that we are called to works to show men our new status in Christ and this is a choice because James would not have written what he wrote if works just happened.

Works need a physical body because faith cannot be seen.

James said if we claim we have faith but have no works, our faith is dead.

Those are his words. He did nto say they will be automatic, He insisted that are a byproduct.

Even the theif on the cross had works..

Again, I did nto say we need to see them. But to sau they will have zero zip nada works. That is not true. In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Unless a person really has no faith at all.

 

[UnderGrace]

You disagree with James?

How can a person be born of God and not change one part of his life? I am sorry But I will not agree a person can be born of God and have zero works..

His faith is dead. And that faith can not save.

Anyway we have discussed this before and I found no peace in Lordship salvation doctrine so I will not go back to it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, I am not sure what you mean.

What was dead was once alive.

According to james, it was dead, and it is still dead..

 

[UnderGrace]

According to james, it was dead, and it is still dead..

Funny, please how can something be dead unless it was first alive, the way you look at James I think leads to the salvation can be lost doctrine.

Never that I know of can something be dead unless it first lived, aside from this dead in context means inoperative, useless, meaning not being put to use.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyway we have discussed this before and I found no peace in Lordship salvation doctrine so I will not go back to it.

I am not teaching lordship salvation.

So please. If that is what you think, you are wrong, Because that is far from the truth

I am teaching a person who is made a new creature will have some sort of fruit which comes from work. The their on the cross was saved by his faith, But look at his change, he went from mocking, to asking God to remember him.. Showing true fruits of repentance.

If a person comes, and claims he is saved, and acts like he did before he made this profession of faith, I am sorry, But you can not tell me that person is saved. There will be SOME evidence.. even if it is just a different attitude, a change in actions. Something.. It will not be empty

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Funny, please how can something be dead unless it was first alive, the way you look at James I think leads to the salvation can be lost doctrine.

Never that I know of can something be dead unless it first lived, aside from that dead in context means inoperative, useless, meaning not being put to use.

Did james ever say their faith was alive?

James said they CLAIMED to HAVE FAITH, he NEVER said they had living faith..

So why are you saying it was alive once?

 

[UnderGrace]

Did james ever say their faith was alive?

James said they CLAIMED to HAVE FAITH, he NEVER said they had living faith..

So why are you saying it was alive once?

Logic

 

[dcontroversal]

I cannot get past the fact that a believer has DONE the work of the Heavenly Father....and that is the ONLY WORK that proves salvation before the throne............and the reason I say this is because MANY (plenteous in number) will come before the throne claiming MANY wonderful works in the name of JESUS..he does not say they did not do the works in his name, but he does say that HE NEVER KNEW THEM

LOST MEN do MANY WONDERFUL works every day, they give to charities, work in soup kitchens, open doors for little old ladies, donate to religious organizations, feed the poor, etc........and even in the name of JESUS but are as lost as a goose

 

[Eli12]

Funny, please how can something be dead unless it was first alive, the way you look at James I think leads to the salvation can be lost doctrine.

Never that I know of can something be dead unless it first lived, aside from this dead in context means inoperative, useless, meaning not being put to use.

Of course:

Luk 9:60 (ESV) And Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe the hiccup is conflating fruit with works?


Works are the fruit He works in us manifesting outwardly.


What stands between works and fruit is a flesh that only wants pleasure and wants to avoid hardship.


All of His have some fruit being worked inwardly, wether or not it manifests can not and will not save or keep saved.

I'm thinking we can agree on that?

I think the issue is the definition of works..

Not all work is seen of men,, It may just be a small change in lifestyle or attitude, It may be the healing or change in values and lifestyle (certain sins which they loved to do before they no longer have a desire to do because it puts a bad taste in their mouth)

 

[UnderGrace]

Of course:

Luk 9:60 (ESV) And Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

I would say this is a different context than what James is writing about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I cannot get past the fact that a believer has DONE the work of the Heavenly Father....and that is the ONLY WORK that proves salvation before the throne............

I agree and i am not saying anythign else

I am talking about what happens after this.. A little things called God begining a good work in us, and he will complete it.

I am not talking works as in salvation, I am talking works as in sanctification.

and the reason I say this is because MANY (plenteous in number) will come before the throne claiming MANY wonderful works in the name of JESUS..he does not say they did not do the works in his name, but he does say that HE NEVER KNEW THEM

yep. Thats because they never repented.. They never did the work of God and believed in the one he sent. I agree with this too.

LOST MEN do MANY WONDERFUL works every day, they give to charities, work in soup kitchens, open doors for little old ladies, donate to religious organizations, feed the poor, etc........and even in the name of JESUS but are as lost as a goose

Pharisees are a great example. Amen brother!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Of course:

Luk 9:60 (ESV) And Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

WOW man.....the context is FAITH not men and or physical death........no wonder you miss the truth by a mile....cannot even grasp the context of a conversation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course:

Luk 9:60 (ESV) And Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

James is speaking against people in the church who are hearers of the word not doers. His proclamation is what does it profit a person if they CLAIM to have faith, But have NO WORK (zero zip nada) can that CLAIMED faith save them?