Not By Works

[mailmandan]

The goal of the gospel is holiness.

The goal of the gospel is to save those who believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) Those who have been justified by faith are sanctified/set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, (past tense) but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet there is also progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining ongoing process of practical, progressive holiness in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

The gospel is pardon and power, forgiveness and restoration, cleansing/new life, etc. If we do not have the faith that will stop us from sinning, we do not have the faith that can be taken to eternal life.

Do you believe that you have completely stopped sinning? Do you claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus lived? Is that your gospel? Live a sinless life or else you won't be saved?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I agree with this.

however, while we are called to be blameless, holy and pure, we need to acknowledge when we fall short of that.

and we know this by using the standards that the Bible lays out, without changing them. and that includes the definition of the words that compose Scripture.

Repentance

Paul is quite simple about repentance
"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Act 26:20

For those who want to know what repent means look into the history of Israel, the old testament
and Hebrew

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Elul/Teshuvah/teshuvah.html


Four Steps of Repentance Teshuvah:

1 Forsake the sin (Prov. 28:13). "Sincere repentance is demonstrated when the same temptation to sin, under the same conditions, is resolutely resisted" (Talmud Yoma 86b). Note that according to traditional Jewish views, the atonement is of no avail without repentance (Midrash Sifra). [shuv/strepho]

2 Regret the breach in your relationship with God and others (Psalm 51). [nacham/metanoia]

3 Confess the truth and make amends with those we have harmed (Prov. 28:13; 1 John 1:9; James 5:16, Matt. 5:23-4). Note that we must ask for mechilah (forgiveness from others) before receiving selichah (forgiveness from God). [shuv/strepho]

4 Accept your forgiveness and move forward with the LORD through faith (Phil. 3:13-14; 1 John 1:9). Be comforted by the Presence of the LORD in your life: Nachumu: "Comfort ye my people" (Isa. 40:1). [nacham/metanoia].

Finally, it needs to be said that authentic repentance is a lifestyle, not a "one time deal." We never get past it. Although there is certainly spiritual progress as we walk in grace, all genuine progress comes through ongoing teshuvah. We may repent from a certain action at a given point in time, but that does not mean that no longer need to do teshuvah. Teshuvah is perpetual and timeless, since it corresponds to our spiritual rather than our temporal lives (i.e., chayei olam rather than chayei sha'ah). Indeed, a true penitent is called baal teshuvah , a "master of returning," who is always turning away from self and toward God. We never get beyond the call to "repent and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). That is why the season of teshuvah is always timely. The message of Elul and the High Holidays is meant to be carried over throughout the rest of the year.

There is always a sense when we are always unworthy and humble.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I do understand your issue about the way many use "gift", but it is really emphasized in scripture: "thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift" 2 Cor 9:15. Paul emphasizes "free gift" and the "gift by grace". And I understand that salvation is by Grace through (the channel of) faith. The gift includes implanted love, implanted obedience, i.e. loving obedience. The gift is not forgiveness alone, but forgiveness/restoration. The goal of the gospel is holiness.

The gospel is pardon and power, forgiveness and restoration, cleansing/new life, etc. If we do not have the faith that will stop us from sinning, we do not have the faith that can be taken to eternal life. At Jesus second coming, God is not going to turn a screw in our head so that now we are a sinless robot. Longer story short: the bible is absolutely clear that Jesus must reign in us...there can be no 1%-99% Jesus management and 1%-99% personal management. We must empty ourselves of self or the gospel can never be true for us. That is 100% bible truth. Now the blow. WE cannot empty SELF of SELF. So what is the bible solution? We can only CONSENT for Christ to do the work. When we start to realize what we are, we will 100% realize that if anything is to foundationally change (and total transformation is an intricate part of conversion/salvation) , it will not be through our own effort, but through the merits and power of Jesus. We are to talk to Jesus, realize our complete helplessness, and ask from Him faith, and to take our life, our mind, and mold it to His image for the glory of God. It is really sad that so many professed Christians seem to be on Satans "sin doesn't really matter, saved or unsaved" side. Such really have no sense what the cross is about.

The goal of the gospel is holiness.

I would express this as being the goal of the gospel is to walk with Jesus and be with Him.
To some this sounds like something different than being saved.

But this reflects where their hearts are, and how impersonal being saved is for them.

 

[gb9]

Repentance

Paul is quite simple about repentance
"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Act 26:20

For those who want to know what repent means look into the history of Israel, the old testament
and Hebrew

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Elul/Teshuvah/teshuvah.html


Four Steps of Repentance Teshuvah:

1 Forsake the sin (Prov. 28:13). "Sincere repentance is demonstrated when the same temptation to sin, under the same conditions, is resolutely resisted" (Talmud Yoma 86b). Note that according to traditional Jewish views, the atonement is of no avail without repentance (Midrash Sifra). [shuv/strepho]

2 Regret the breach in your relationship with God and others (Psalm 51). [nacham/metanoia]

3 Confess the truth and make amends with those we have harmed (Prov. 28:13; 1 John 1:9; James 5:16, Matt. 5:23-4). Note that we must ask for mechilah (forgiveness from others) before receiving selichah (forgiveness from God). [shuv/strepho]

4 Accept your forgiveness and move forward with the LORD through faith (Phil. 3:13-14; 1 John 1:9). Be comforted by the Presence of the LORD in your life: Nachumu: "Comfort ye my people" (Isa. 40:1). [nacham/metanoia].

Finally, it needs to be said that authentic repentance is a lifestyle, not a "one time deal." We never get past it. Although there is certainly spiritual progress as we walk in grace, all genuine progress comes through ongoing teshuvah. We may repent from a certain action at a given point in time, but that does not mean that no longer need to do teshuvah. Teshuvah is perpetual and timeless, since it corresponds to our spiritual rather than our temporal lives (i.e., chayei olam rather than chayei sha'ah). Indeed, a true penitent is called baal teshuvah , a "master of returning," who is always turning away from self and toward God. We never get beyond the call to "repent and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). That is why the season of teshuvah is always timely. The message of Elul and the High Holidays is meant to be carried over throughout the rest of the year.

There is always a sense when we are always unworthy and humble.

see, all I said was " we are called to be holy, blameless and pure, but we need to use the standards that the Bible sets forth to see if we do or not", and you throw out all this.

why can't you just agree to the simple reality that we are all human and we all make mistakes.????

get out of your silly " I walk just as he walked " fantasy world, and join us here in reality where we are all sinners in need of a perfect , sinless savior to save us from ourselves..

 

[Gracie_14]

Thanks for all the Happy reactions...."Heretics" guy...you know who you are SMH

 

[star]

And the prize Paul is running for is?

To be mature in Christ. The goal for all Christians should be to be complete and mature in the mind of Christ. We, however, will not fully reach that goal until we are in heaven, with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[star]

Salvation has never been a free gift.
Jesus calls us to give up our lives in the world for a life in Him.

Jesus made the gate and path possible. That is the gift, but the
cost is everything we are.

It is really this simple and Jesus declares it in these terms.

24 If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 16:24-27

Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:33

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4

6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:6-9

It is such an exaguration that today so many preach lawlessness for a gospel of
obedience and walking in love, having ones heart filled with Christ and His will.

You are spouting a false teaching. You are denying what Jesus Christ has told us, what God the Father has told us.

Ephs, 2: 8-9; 2 Corin. 5:21; Act

Salvation has never been a free gift.
Jesus calls us to give up our lives in the world for a life in Him.

Jesus made the gate and path possible. That is the gift, but the
cost is everything we are.

It is really this simple and Jesus declares it in these terms.

24 If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 16:24-27

Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:33

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4

6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:6-9

It is such an exaguration that today so many preach lawlessness for a gospel of
obedience and walking in love, having ones heart filled with Christ and His will.

You are preaching a false teaching.

Read more scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be mature in Christ. The goal for all Christians should be to be complete and mature in the mind of Christ. We, however, will not fully reach that goal until we are in heaven, with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That is called glorification. A term that represents when our sanctification in christ equals our position in Christ. Or another way to say it, our positional sanctification equals our conditional sanctification.

 

[Melach]

The goal of the gospel is holiness.

I would express this as being the goal of the gospel is to walk with Jesus and be with Him.
To some this sounds like something different than being saved.

But this reflects where their hearts are, and how impersonal being saved is for them.

here is what i would ask:

is the purpose to save us from our sins, or save us in our sins?

is salvation only positional or manifest in our life? does God sanctify those He has justified?

 

[star]

The prize we should all seek and the race we should all run is to "follow the example of Christ" which He lived while in human form. He gave us the path and laid out the race for us.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You are spouting a false teaching. You are denying what Jesus Christ has told us, what God the Father has told us.
Ephs, 2: 8-9; 2 Corin. 5:21; Act
You are preaching a false teaching.
Read more scripture.
Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10

God bless you, a least we can agree to differ.

Summaries are very useful to convey the basic intent, but it is up to the listeners
to interpret as they see necessary. If one takes a summary as the detailed exposition
of spiritual reality, one will end up very poor.

Some will say because repentance from sins is not mentioned, or belief that Christ is
the atoning sacrifice, or that we are to obey or that we are to follow Jesus, none of these
things are important. I would actually say the opposite, when giving a historical version
of events obviously one is just giving a summary of what is said, or else the book would
be too long.

But we always stand in love and truth before the King and it is our hearts that testify
through our conscience's and spirit's where we are in Him, Praise the Lord, Amen.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

here is what i would ask:
is the purpose to save us from our sins, or save us in our sins?
is salvation only positional or manifest in our life? does God sanctify those He has justified?

Salvation for me is not such a useful word, as it refers to being taken from one place to another.
Communion, abiding, dwelling seem more appropriate, and we are being transformed more into His
likeness day by day. So yes we are being sanctified as we are justified. This is why grace works to
overcome our shortfalls and weaknesses so we can grow in His ways and strengths.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

see, all I said was " we are called to be holy, blameless and pure, but we need to use the standards that the Bible sets forth to see if we do or not", and you throw out all this.
why can't you just agree to the simple reality that we are all human and we all make mistakes.????
get out of your silly " I walk just as he walked " fantasy world, and join us here in reality where we are all sinners in need of a perfect , sinless savior to save us from ourselves..

I see what you are saying. You are just sinners with no hope of being slaves to righteousness.
Does it not make you wonder what Paul is talking about?

And the reason I mention repentance, because repentance is our life in Christ.
It is the walk of transformation, the walk where our hearts are changed into His heart.

Are you not just declaring you are a lost sinner with no hope of redemption?
You sound like a thought Christian, where the cross and His deeds only are for a distant
forgiveness and not something that burns in you like it is your whole life.

Have you not read the 1st commandment

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

Is this your heart? Or is your heart just Jesus sorts and forgives you of everything and on
that last day you will become someone who truly loves God?

What happens if you discover you missed God and ignored His calling to your heart, to
let go of control of your feelings and security and trust Him to heal and make you whole?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

see, all I said was " we are called to be holy, blameless and pure, but we need to use the standards that the Bible sets forth to see if we do or not", and you throw out all this.
why can't you just agree to the simple reality that we are all human and we all make mistakes.????
get out of your silly " I walk just as he walked " fantasy world, and join us here in reality where we are all sinners in need of a perfect , sinless savior to save us from ourselves..

Repentance. I shared my friend about repentance because this is Gods revelation to mankind

The cross is the sign of Jonah to the world. Nineveh was to be judged unless they repented, and Jonah
after being in the whale was the sing of Gods intention.

So Jesus and the resurrection was the sign that Jerusalem was to be destroyed, unless it repented.
AD 70 judgement fell.

14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace.
15 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when I punish them," says the LORD.
16 This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'
Jer 6:14-16

 

[star]

We are not to "interpret" scripture as we see fit. The HS is to be our guide. The Words of God stand for themselves and is the Truth we are to follow. We are not to change scripture to fit our "agenda" and to support false teachings.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

We are not to "interpret" scripture as we see fit. The HS is to be our guide. The Words of God stand for themselves and is the Truth we are to follow. We are not to change scripture to fit our "agenda" and to support false teachings.

I know these issues are complex and rely on a pure heart, cleansed and purified by the blood of Christ.
Without a cleansed heart, we will always change what is meant to be into something different and gentle
towards our problems and difficulties.

Jesus said some strange things. Not that He will judge us, but the very words He has spoken.
I have read so many dismiss His words as for the Jews, as sarcastic instructions to bring condemnation
to legalists, as mocking the pharisees. I now see these arguments for what they are, ways of stopping
change in the hearts of the speakers, and to make them humble themselves and walk in life.

A simple point is to name one issue Jesus talks up that we cannot follow or do.
I have heard people claim sin they know of is minor, not part of the 10 commandments, but when
examined it actually was. Until you walk in the light, self deception is very easy, and being honest
costs too much.

Unfortunately confronting sin and evil is our calling in Christ. We have no compromise possible.

 

[oldethennew]

For sure...I always say, "Why not bow willingly instead if being forced"

===============================================
dc,
the phrase, 'to rule with a rod of iron', is based in historical fact - when someone would present themselves
to a 'king', in the near east, it was expected of them to kneel before the king, but if they chose not to,
there were guards standing-by with rods of iron, and they would strike those who were dis-respectful
behind the knees with that rod of iron to make them bow, whether they chose to or not...

 

[stonesoffire]

21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
James 2:21-22

Faith is made complete by actions, faith is just an intention without its outworking.
Thought christians are just hopeful sinners thinking they know Jesus.

I'm not a fan of James FHS.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

Abraham was given the promise of his own seed receiving the inheritance. He was righteous because he believed FHS.....what did he believe? That even if Isaac was a sacrifice, he would be raised from the dead. Did you know that Abraham had a vision and saw the "seed" of Genesis? You will see it if you do a word study on the story in the KJV.

Anywho, it wasn't the action of sacrifice per'se that declared righteousness for Abraham but the faith he had in the promise of God.

He was also said to be a friend of God. He must of had many conversations with the Lord and knew personally of the great faithfulness of YHWH.

 

[UnderGrace]

The gift is the door and the path, the way of salvation,

A complete fabrication not based on any exegesis of the scripture

.........and to completely contradict God.....wow!

Listen FHS......The gift is salvation!!

 

[dcontroversal]

===============================================
dc,
the phrase, 'to rule with a rod of iron', is based in historical fact - when someone would present themselves
to a 'king', in the near east, it was expected of them to kneel before the king, but if they chose not to,
there were guards standing-by with rods of iron, and they would strike those who were dis-respectful
behind the knees with that rod of iron to make them bow, whether they chose to or not...

I am fairly confident that God did not take a history lesson from man to write every knee shall bow and every tongue confess........and my reference was to the lost that presently refuse to confess him Lord and bow willingly....