we must always be strong and take courage, for reality will eventually
school every dis-believer...
every knee shall kneel...
school every dis-believer...
every knee shall kneel...
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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This is thought Christianity, where a thought Jesus is God saves you, it is faith and belief.
And not only this you just have to have the thought once in your life.
So the difference between heaven and the lake of fire in this scenario is one thought,
spotted and logged and you are locked in eternally.
But the truth is this is not following Jesus, openning our hearts, living for God with
all our hearts, mind and strength. There literally cannot be the opposite of the first
commandment than this, a single thought as some time in ones life.
Salvation has never been a free gift.
Jesus calls us to give up our lives in the world for a life in Him.
Jesus made the gate and path possible. That is the gift, but the
cost is everything we are.
It is really this simple and Jesus declares it in these terms.
24 If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 16:24-27
Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:33
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:6-9
It is such an exaguration that today so many preach lawlessness for a gospel of
obedience and walking in love, having ones heart filled with Christ and His will.
Your interpretation appears to be a calvanistic, predistined view alone expression.
What I am expressing is simple the words and expressions about how we as Gods people
are called to put good things into effect and not do evil things that the world does.
These are not debatable, these are what scripture calls us to follow.
And if we follow we gain eternal life, while if we go with the world we die.
My point is theories and frameworks are all very well, but we are called to follow Jesus
and take responsibility for our walk. Christ clearly gives us this free will and will encourage
us to take the next step. If teachings people hold to deny this, then that teaching is not
from God.
For sure...I always say, "Why not bow willingly instead if being forced"
How clear is the following scripture....I MEAN...how can one read this and then believe one must work to be saved or keep it........
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness....
It is IMPOSSIBLE for those who have ONCE been ENLIGHTENED, who have tasted THE HEAVENLY GIFT, who have SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, who have tasted the GOODNESS OF THE WORD of God and the POWERS of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to REPENTANCE, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But LAND THAT PRODUCES THORNS AND THISTLES is worthless and is in danger of being CURSED. In the end it will be BURNED. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION. God is not unjust; he will not forget your WORK and the LOVE you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same DILIGENCE to the very end, IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR HOPE SURE. We do not want you TO BECOME LAZY, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
...But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and "DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT". But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Jude 1:17-21
Notice the bolded above and what James is saying below...
...You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:22,26
...You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:24
Do you please the Spirit by lying to Him?
...DO NOT BE DECEIVED: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10
If it is OK for them to lie to the Holy Spirit, it's no big deal for them to accuse, slander, insult, mock, name call and "change the grace of God into a LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY".
...But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and "DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT". But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Jude 1:17-21
Notice the bolded above and what James is saying below...
...You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:22,26
...You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:24
Do you please the Spirit by lying to Him?
...DO NOT BE DECEIVED: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10
My point was that you seem to say that man is justified by works. That it is our righteousness that proves our faith and that we choose that. My point (presuming that is what you meant) is that man is evil. Jesus even told us so, to the point that he drove off most of his hearers. We cannot keep the law. We are not under law, but under grace. That was all I was saying.
May God be the Judge
I can speak for @UnderGrace having associated with her for years.....She fully believes we are justified before God by faith....
Our righteous works (such works are only with Christ within) have zero merit regarding salvation, but righteous works are ALWAYS the fruit of Christ within. In fact there is no such thing as righteous works without Christ within.
Guess Paul got it wrong.....
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
I do agree with the last part of your statement.....Christ through us as a living sacrifice......HE, AS THE ROOT, IS the one producing.....!!!
No man can keep the law (stop sinning) of himself. When one is born again, Christ is within, and the former sinning person or law breaker, becomes a law keeper. As God said "I will put my law in their heart and write it in their mind" and talking of Jesus it is said "He loved righteousness (right thinking, right speaking, right doing) and hated iniquity". Its about Love. We don't hurt those we love. we don't desire things we hate. We please those we love. We stay away from things we hate. Again, conversion is, according to Paul, a transformation of the mind where it is the mind of Christ......we are called to let it happen. We are called to love God.
What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China......you have now conflated justification with ongoing sanctification.....and if you think you don't sin any more I would suggest you are mistaken....
John, the disciple that loved Jesus, the same John that writes almost 1/5 of the N.T. said...
If WE say that WE have NO SIN, WE are deceived and the truth is not in US.....
The transformational process described in Romans 12:1-2 is tied to the ongoing process of sanctification whkch is subject to success and failure.....it has NOTHING to do with being eternally justified before God by faith......
Those who oppose transformation, and oppose those who are transformed, are those who
live in the unbelief we are promised change and asked to bow the knee to change.
If one is not changed, with a closed heart, and only ideas but desperation to find some
reality, make enemies of those they believe lie about the testimony from their hearts
and claim of the impossible, yet both these things confirm the reality of the cross, and
testify to the power of the resurrection and in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
I wonder if there is hope for such opponents who set themselves up as judge and jury,
ignoring the word of God and its outpouring of our communion and interaction with
our Lord, is there a way to faith for them?
No one opposes transfromation Peter.....and again you post deception and lies to peddle your psychological blather.....make sure you tell him you have been banned a few times and are back breaking CC rules...Deceivers will deceive!!
...TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU...Matthew 28:18-20
Who are CLAIMING that they who BELIEVE in Christ and are SAVED, are the ones who truly OBEY?
Why do they attack those who OBEY Christ's command to teach OBEDIENCE to his commands instead of teaching OBEDIENCE to His commands as the verses CLEARLY state?
It's because they do not really BELIEVE Christ who spoke those words and their defiance proves it. They would rather BELIEVE and OBEY FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES....for they loved praise from men more than praise from God. John 12:42-43
The itsy TWISTY spider...
...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. THEY ARE GODLESS MEN, WHO CHANGE THE GRACE OF OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and DENY Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4
...They claim to know God, but by THEIR ACTIONS they DENY Him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good. Titus 1:16
Look who's talking about HONESTY.
...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6
Do you not CALL EVIL GOOD and GOOD EVIL? (Isaiah 5:20-24)
Is it RIGHT to OBEY God? Is it GOOD or is it WRONG and EVIL? If it is RIGHT and GOOD, why do you call those who promote OBEDIENCE TO GOD as FALSE or peddlers of a FALSE GOSPEL?
Do you not insult and call the views of those who promote OBEDIENCE to God as IDIOTIC?
It's funny how your group can say that only genuine believers would OBEY God and those who promote OBEDIENCE to God are LOST, UNBELIEVERS, FALSE, DECEIVER, NOT SAVED TO BEGIN WITH and many other discriminating NEGATIVE remarks.
And when you are called out, you will accuse them of SLANDER and start bullying those who disagree with you to the point of getting them banned to SUPPRESS THE TRUTH which no NOSAS ever did.
But scriptures fortold of these kind of people and behaviour.
.. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:14-19
...If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5
...Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. HE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
IS IT RIGHT TO OBEY GOD or not?
Are you an instrument of God's righteousness or do you just BELIEVE and let God do everything for you?
Who now is the LORD, you?...and who is your servant, GOD?
....“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares HIS SON WHO SERVES HIM. And you will again see the DISTINCTION between the RIGHTEOUS and the WICKED, between those who SERVE GOD and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18
...God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 2 Corinthians 5:21[
...I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in LEADING THE GENTILES TO OBEY GOD BY WHAT I HAVE SAID AND DONE— Romans 15:15-18
Who are CLAIMING that they who BELIEVE in Christ and are SAVED, are the ones who truly OBEY?
Why do they attack those who OBEY Christ's command to teach OBEDIENCE to his commands instead of teaching OBEDIENCE to His commands as the verses CLEARLY state?
It's because they do not really BELIEVE Christ who spoke those words and their defiance proves it. They would rather BELIEVE and OBEY FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES....for they loved praise from men more than praise from God. John 12:42-43
The itsy TWISTY spider...
...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. THEY ARE GODLESS MEN, WHO CHANGE THE GRACE OF OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and DENY Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4
...They claim to know God, but by THEIR ACTIONS they DENY Him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good. Titus 1:16
Look who's talking about HONESTY.
...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6
Do you not CALL EVIL GOOD and GOOD EVIL? (Isaiah 5:20-24)
Is it RIGHT to OBEY God? Is it GOOD or is it WRONG and EVIL? If it is RIGHT and GOOD, why do you call those who promote OBEDIENCE TO GOD as FALSE or peddlers of a FALSE GOSPEL?
Do you not insult and call the views of those who promote OBEDIENCE to God as IDIOTIC?
It's funny how your group can say that only genuine believers would OBEY God and those who promote OBEDIENCE to God are LOST, UNBELIEVERS, FALSE, DECEIVER, NOT SAVED TO BEGIN WITH and many other discriminating NEGATIVE remarks.
And when you are called out, you will accuse them of SLANDER and start bullying those who disagree with you to the point of getting them banned to SUPPRESS THE TRUTH which no NOSAS ever did.
But scriptures fortold of these kind of people and behaviour.
.. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:14-19
...If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5
...Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. HE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
IS IT RIGHT TO OBEY GOD or not?
Are you an instrument of God's righteousness or do you just BELIEVE and let God do everything for you?
Who now is the LORD, you?...and who is your servant, GOD?
....“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares HIS SON WHO SERVES HIM. And you will again see the DISTINCTION between the RIGHTEOUS and the WICKED, between those who SERVE GOD and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18
...God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 2 Corinthians 5:21[
...I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in LEADING THE GENTILES TO OBEY GOD BY WHAT I HAVE SAID AND DONE— Romans 15:15-18
If you can speak for someone else's stance then maybe you could speak for yourself regarding your stance about lying to the Holy Spirit...is it ok to lie to the Holy Spirit because you are ALWAYS SAVED?
The free gift is this: the atonement. The atonement in simple terms:
>The sacrificial element of the atonement - Jesus death on the cross- for the sins of man. That's a free gift.
>The Holy Spirit for, guess what? Holy Spirit/Christ within living. A simple verse on that: "the just shall live by faith" ("live" meaning 24/7 living by faith- sleeping, grooming, eating, clothing, thinking, talking, working, recreation, paying taxes, everything)
> boldness to stand before God (See Ephesians 4: 13 and 1 John 4:17) in the judgement.
All of that is the gift....the question is who will receive it and continue in it.
Nothing you say Catholic has any bearing....one such as yourself that states openly by doctrine and your very words that you are not saved yet has no spiritual discernment.....irrevocable means exactly that, so does eternal and everlasting....
Now to set it straight...in our convo there is only one liar.....that would be the one who has been banned once and is back under another name......in other words....the same one has no integrity and or honor and is breaking the rules of this site.......
Those who refuse to accept we are to obey Jesus and follow after Him as impossible
objectives to make us more dependent of Christ and forgiveness alone, while staying
embedded in sin is exactly denying transformation
This is transformation of the heart so we can walk like Jesus.
It is clear people will call this heresy and deception, believing it is impossible and those
preaching it are sinless perfectionists and leading people to hell.
So I cannot accept your denial of what is clearly stated and argued. But I wonder why
hide such a strategy, why dislike a light being shone on what is going on and denying
the sermon on the mount is light to our feet and life to our hearts.
Maybe you can answer, my friend, as you are so vocal in such ideas?
