Not By Works

[Magenta]

 

[50C1AL0N3]

Wisdom...for my self as well as everyone else, let it lead you in understanding scripture.
There are scripture and parables directed to the house of Israel, and to the gentiles. There is scripture directed particularly to different subject matter in many different aspects.
Be carefui.

 

[Argueless]

Here's my reply to hevosmies which i would love to share with you as well. Pls read. Thanks and God biless.

Amen...and for anyone to believe what were written in the bible must have FAITH in God and in Jesus Christ His only Son whom He has sent and gave to us for the forgiveness of our sins.

...Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1

Now it says in the verse that "the sheep hears his voice"

... HE WHO BELONGS TO GOD HEARS WHAT GOD SAYS. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” John 8:47

Jesus "knows them and they follow Him"

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

Jesus KNOWS them that BELONG TO HIM. They are the ones that hear his voice and follow him.

Christians MUST WALK as Jesus did and FOLLOW his examples.

...To this you were called, because Christ SUFFERED for you, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that you should FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS.

Christians should learn to obey the way that Jesus learned OBEDIENCE through His SUFFERINGS.

...Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Hebrews 5:8-9

We should follow Christ's OBEDIENCE TO GOD if we really BELIEVE that He is our SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION.

Those who BELIEVE IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE IN HIM.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

And no one can pluck us out of Jesus' and the Father's hand if we remain or abide in Him.

... “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. John 15:1-17 (see also john 14:21-24)

We are in God's hands just like a free bird. We can stay on His hands and abide in Him forever or fly away and get lost and suffer the consequences.

As for sheep, just like the lost sheep, we were once lost and dead in our transgressions unti the Lord found us and gave us a new birth through the Word that endures forever. So never again should we run away from Him so as to get lost but we should abide in Him and be His sons forever.[/QUOTE]

Answering a question with a question while you repeatedly go into lecture overdrive mode suggests disagreement to me.

i'm sorry but i think i asked a question and you were the one who replied with a question instead of answering my question. But anyway, nice talking to you.

 

[unclesilas]

.

MY, no Humility AT ALL.


Romans 12:3 (ASV)
3 For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.


You are on a high ledge, and you have a long ways to FALL.

Well the emboldened is great, and applies to an awful lot of people on the internet, who only have one commandment that matters:
Thou shalt not admit to error. And the post you responded to was 100% accurate

 

[unclesilas]

I can discern just fine.

I discerned that Jesus was fully God and fully man on earth.

and part of the Trinity.

as for your discernment , well, you won't say.

or more like won't admit.

You discern very little

 

[unclesilas]

well. tell us where your studying has lead you.

I mean, you keep implying that you " through the Sprit" have all this understanding, and we don't , just come out and plainly say you believe, and stop demanding your questions be answered, and just state your beliefs.

i' be watching, might even be in a tower.

Let me tell you something about yourself. If I quoted scripture and asked you a plain and simple question concerning it, you would refuse to plainly answer the question. You would refuse to accept the scripture posted to you, go off to find some scripture of your own, missaply it, yet insist it must be followed and mine could be ignored. You may call that mature discussion, I call it exceedingly immature, and refusing to accept one whole bible

 

[BillG]

Ok then you are among those who believe we can continue in sin and still be servants to sin and still be saved?

Nope.
We will not want to continue in sin.
And if you read some of my recent posts you would have known that.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I think people forget the price,

God wraps us in salvation with his own flesh and blood, as God wrapped adam and eve with the skin of animals, and the high priest covered the sin of the people with the blood of the killed animal, so the cherub could not see what accused the people, and as john recognized, jesus is the lamb of god, who removes the sin of us all.

They seem to think they can wrap themselfs, or worse yet, they can open the door of the ark and jump out. (Or unwrap themselves)

They forget salvation was not something we could do, as a person who has fallen into rushing water totally unable to save themselves, then think that if the person is saved, they would jump back into that water, knowing they would have to be saved again, because they did not learn the first time?

Pride is a hard thing to break, we can just pray God break the pride of those whomare so close to truth, but so far from it, pray they are not of those who will stand on their merit, only to be told depart because you NEVER KNEW THEM.

This is so true. Our pride, to believe we have something of value that can be regarded well by God, that
makes us worthy in some way, is wrong. We are totally undone.

But there is an equal error. Not to recognise the work of power, new birth and the Holy Spirit in the life
of a follower of Jesus, that His Spirit is not a Spirit of victory and overcoming.

How many times must we be knocked down before we stop getting back up and walking on?
In Him, never. His heart is He knows us, completely, and will work with us. Every failure is just another area
where His grace will change us, if we let Him.

Humanity is not defined by where they are, but in Christ where He can bring us.

Aim for perfection 2 Cor 13:11

train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
1 tim 4:7-8

Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1 Cor 9:26-27

May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:5-6

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Wow. I must have it all twisted. You're doing " the tree by its fruit" thing huh?
I thought the separation was our proclamation that "CHRIST IS KING!"
So I guess you could pull out the big and easy judgement card if I told you I struggled with drug abuse and still believed and loved the Lord with all my heart?
What do you have to say about that?
I assume only because it was that way with me that it's those exact petty judgements of outward perfection that turn people away from that "Christ stuff"

Amen to your desire to see God overcome in your life.
I am struck by one reality. God knows where we are, and makes a path so we can reach somewhere else.
Salvation is that belief this is possible, and daily taking the next step, no matter how many other issues get in the way.

I realise the person we become through this struggle is different from the person we were when we first start.
It is this change which He brings about, and we are unaware of. But the letting go and the giving of trust to Him is the
hardest thing, to die to self and to live to Him.

But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

 

[Budman]

What is it with you and your obsession with sin?
Does misery want company?

We're not here to discuss sin and especially not person's PERSONAL sin/sins.

Off topic....

No. My "obsession" is with hypocrites like you. You and yours love to point to behavior as "proof" one is saved, and yet your own behavior is just as deplorable as all the rest.

 

[Budman]

i take it your not wanting to know my church address so you can visit????

If you can't even get the basic gospel tenet of justification right, why in the world would I sit under any of your other teaching?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

No. My "obsession" is with hypocrites like you. You and yours love to point to behavior as "proof" one is saved, and yet your own behavior is just as deplorable as all the rest.

hypocriteDictionary result for hypocrite
/ˈhɪpəkrɪt/Submit
noun
plural noun: hypocrites
a hypocritical person.
"the story tells of respectable Ben who turns out to be a cheat and a hypocrite"
synonyms: sanctimonious person, pietist, whited sepulchre, plaster saint, humbug, pretender, deceiver, dissembler, impostor; More

Who is the hypocrite?

A person who claims to know Jesus while denying following Him was His calling or someone who follows and is still working through their life issues?

hypocrisy is what Jesus said the pharisees were doing

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matthew 23:25-26

Jesus calls us to clean inside the cup or we are hypocrites.

 

[mailmandan]

It is simply because this is not a contrast and explains your error if you do not understand this.Abraham was used as an example to support what James was teaching.Hence if Abraham's faith was real then those saying they had faith was a reference to real faith by James.

It's you who remains in error. *In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works to validate his claim. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

The Amplified Classic Bible reads - 14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]? The answer is NO because it is not real faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

In CONTRAST to Abraham’s faith, which was real faith that was evidenced by works. Now the work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, (Romans 4:2-3) but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21,24)

Why do you continue to insist on fighting against the truth?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is so true. Our pride, to believe we have something of value that can be regarded well by God, that
makes us worthy in some way, is wrong. We are totally undone.

But there is an equal error. Not to recognise the work of power, new birth and the Holy Spirit in the life
of a follower of Jesus, that His Spirit is not a Spirit of victory and overcoming.

How many times must we be knocked down before we stop getting back up and walking on?
In Him, never. His heart is He knows us, completely, and will work with us. Every failure is just another area
where His grace will change us, if we let Him.

Humanity is not defined by where they are, but in Christ where He can bring us.

Aim for perfection 2 Cor 13:11

train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
1 tim 4:7-8

Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1 Cor 9:26-27

May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:5-6

True, we should all strive to walk

But this thread is not about walking, it is about how we are saved and empowered to begin that walk.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Like I said, if you want to discuss trinity start a thread on it, this one is about something else entirely

I have to be honest here...
I could not careless where I was , what thread I was on , I would be willing to shout from the rooftops that JESUS IS GOD ...
There are many things in here that have been spoken off , even some have derailed the thread , but no one would ever mind proclaiming Jesus as God , it is a beautiful thing to claim...xox...

 

[Budman]

show me where i went off on you about sinning...............again, i only gave you scriptures

Where you went off about sinning or losing salvation through sin?

Post 86,396

if you want to know what God thinks of sin, look at the cross and you'll stop making excuses for it..

Yet, you make excuses for your own continual sinning.

Post 85,156

I don't believe that Jesus died For Past Sins only, he died for all our sins Our sins are forgiven at the moment of conversion when we are born again. but all of our future Sins must be repented of and forsaken

Have you forsaken sinning? No, you have not.

Post 84,995

The fact that all of our sins were in the future at the time of Christ's atonement is totally immaterial. Our sins were not forgiven at the time of Christ's death. We were not justified when He said, "It is finished."

For a "pastor" you sure don't know much of the Bible.

"He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him." (Colossians 1:22)

Post 84,869

i believe some are caught up in this osas doctrine because they love to sin

Then you believe a lie.

Post 84,665

I cannot tell you the number of people that I have explained their pastor believes that if they ever backslid and go back 2 their sinful lifestyle of fornication, drunkenness Etc and died while in that backslid condition, that they would still go to heaven.

What if you die after you told a lie? How about after you lusted for a woman? The Bible says those people will not inherit the Kingdom. Your kind love to trot out the "big" sins, while ignoring the fact that even a single "little" sin attributed to you will send you to hell.

Post 84,558

Imediatley after saying you are clean through the word he then says Abide in me All through the chapter he says ....abide in me.....If you keep my commandments.....if ye do whatsoever I command you ECT... How can I possibly be saved if I do not abide in Him???

Are you "abiding in Him" when you sin daily?

Post 84,530

Now balance scripture with scripture read John chapter 15 and see what happens to all those who do not abide in Christ!

See above.

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith only doesn't work S,
Jesus said we need love.
Mathew 22:37-39
We have to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Paul repeated this.
1 Corinthians 13:1
Paul tells us that no matter what gift he may have...if he does not have love, he's like a clanging cymbal. (just making a lot of noise).

So if both Jesus and Paul said we also need love,,,,how could only faith be enough for salvation?

The N.T. teaches us that we need:
FAITH
HOPE
LOVE (charity)

So you teach we are saved by faith + love? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently loved your neighbor as yourself, so now the Lord will be able to save you? How many acts of charity does it take? Don't turn this into salvation by works. If someone has saving faith in Christ and has received the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for them to have NO love at all. Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, (Ephesians 2:8) not faith plus love.

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary once we are in the presence of the Lord, love will still be the governing principle that controls everything that God and his saints are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. Paul is stressing the importance of love and not teaching salvation by faith + love.

All genuine BELIEVERS have love. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

 

[Budman]

hypocriteDictionary result for hypocrite
/ˈhɪpəkrɪt/Submit
noun
plural noun: hypocrites
a hypocritical person.
"the story tells of respectable Ben who turns out to be a cheat and a hypocrite"
synonyms: sanctimonious person, pietist, whited sepulchre, plaster saint, humbug, pretender, deceiver, dissembler, impostor; More

Who is the hypocrite?

A person who claims to know Jesus while denying following Him was His calling or someone who follows and is still working through their life issues?

hypocrisy is what Jesus said the pharisees were doing

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matthew 23:25-26

Jesus calls us to clean inside the cup or we are hypocrites.

One who condemns others for sinning while sinning themselves. One who condemns others for not "abiding" when they themselves are not abiding. Those who sit on their self-righteous high horse and thunder down judgment on others while making excuses for their own daily sinning.

 

[gb9]

Let me tell you something about yourself. If I quoted scripture and asked you a plain and simple question concerning it, you would refuse to plainly answer the question. You would refuse to accept the scripture posted to you, go off to find some scripture of your own, missaply it, yet insist it must be followed and mine could be ignored. You may call that mature discussion, I call it exceedingly immature, and refusing to accept one whole bible

the Bible is about 1 thing- the Lord Jesus Christ.

since you do not think Jesus was fully God on earth, then your opinions are irrelevant.

 

[mailmandan]

No one is justified by the law. How many times does this have to be repeated?

However, you can't change what Paul is saying in Romans 2:6-7
He IS saying how we are saved.

He is saying exactly what Jesus said in
John 5:28-29 JESUS said:
28Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,
29and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Jesus and Paul believed exactly the same thing...of course.

You continue to read the Bible through the lens of works salvation and stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. You also continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

As I have already previously explained this to you numerous times, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the means of their salvation, but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in regards to Romans 2:6-10 in post #86,482 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4325#post-3853765

In John 5:28-29, *notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"