Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You must have heard something I didn't say........sin is a choice that a man chooses to commit, that's what I was saying.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:5 KJV
Notice how the verse you quoted is past tense?
How do you guys on here totally dismiss the verses of scripture I give while in same breathe say I'm wrong but never show me where?
Also I noticed how you left off the last part of what you originally said
BTW your acceptance of someone who says they are Christians means absolutely nothing..,...Christian means CHRIST LIKE
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions/sin – it is by grace you have been saved Eph2:5You must have heard something I didn't say........sin is a choice that a man chooses to commit, that's what I was saying.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:5 KJV
Notice how the verse you quoted is past tense?
How do you guys on here totally dismiss the verses of scripture I give while in same breathe say I'm wrong but never show me where?
Also I noticed how you left off the last part of what you originally said
BTW your acceptance of someone who says they are Christians means absolutely nothing..,...Christian means CHRIST LIKE
It is quite plainly written. You do not have to fully obey the law/not commit sin in order to be placed in a saved state.
However, let me quote scripture as others do, with the same mindset they appear to have.
Have you ever fasted? If you have, did you so much as hint to anyone you were fasting? If so you would be a hypocrite according to Christ. Can hypocrites expect to enter heaven?
Do you not invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, blind lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven? If not, why refuse to do what Christ stated?
Do you truly in your heart love your enemies, those who may be unkind to you or persecute you? If not why do you refuse to do what Christ said believers should do?
Jesus said if you love him you will obey his commandments. If you do not obey him do you not love him?
If someone stole something of yours, would you give them more besides what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them? If not, why not?
You see, anyone can quote the partial letter, and hold it inflexibly. But in truth, we all rely on the love mercy and compassion of God for we all fail the letter each and every day of our lives
if the wages of sin is death, who is going to save you from this judgement, this is the very reason we are going to die, who gave you authority to know what a sin is,if there is a sin there must be a punishment, yet mostly all on this forum, are saying god or jesus has saved me from my sin, this is the very reason, we do not have authority to know what a sin is, who is going to save god and jesus from your judgement.
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Under the new covenant the law God desires you to follow is written in your mind and placed on your heart
Through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20
Therefore, if you wilfully go against the law written in your mind and placed on your heart you must be conscious you sin by doing so
Amen! However Matthew seven is speaking of Sin in general. While working out our own salvation outside of Christ can be included. Matthew seven is speaking of sin in general
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(Mat 7:15-24 KJV)
In summary....
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE (for that reason; consequently ) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
In other words Not doing the sayings of Jesus, the will of the FATHER is bad fruit; iniquity.
Are wages reckoned of grace or of debt?
Romans 4:4:Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
a. So if we work for Justification, we are acting as if God owes it to us. That is what I mean by meritorious works. It is false
But what about works AFTER justification?
Are their rewards reckoned of GRACE or OF DEBT?
I say of Grace, DC. What do you say?
And what about other rewards, like Hebrews 10:35? Reckoned of grace or debt?
I say you are very deceptive indeed.
the very next verse ( Romans 4 v.5-) " however, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly , their faith is credited as righteousness.".
isolating Scripture and building theology is bad .
LOL, READ what I posted!
Where did I contradict vs 5. I am agreeing with verse 5. Why did you skip the LINES AFTER WHAT I POSTED
and stop name calling. You are calling me names because you are ignorant of what I am saying due TO NOT READING THE POSTS.
READ THE REST OF THE POST before you respond, and see where I am going.
Just LIKE YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND DC when he said a person can be a believer for many years without bearing fruit, even though I posted the link and post numbers, you DIDNT UNDERSTAND, because of your careless reading.
under the new covenant you need a god or jesus to save you from your sin,
Ephesians 6:17 [Full Chapter]
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
you will need to understand, how you use these tools , for what i am about to write , (full armour)
who gave you authority to read from the torah, how did you get this written work,even though i know what a sin is, will it stop death for me. whos presence are you trying to stop ,entering in to gods presence. the logus word is for this very reason,
calvin, the pope, and all religions, have left the building, we have no authority to define sin, because by defining what a sin is, you have just condemned your self, the fact the old testament was stolen by rome and other religions, who sacked the temple of stone, (on more that one occasion the temple has been sacked) and read from this book , by reading a stolen book, have you sinned by who ever gave you this book to read.or by reading it freely.
42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.
they were given authority not by men, these people still died , to the human form , now,who appointed you judge. if they are preaching, he is the judge of the living and the dead.
Since you still do not understand what I mean, because you choose not to, I will put my statements in their context so that at least others may understand.
Post 83,878- Salvation is a big pile of presents. Open one box, WOW, regeneration/Holy Spirit. Open another, WOW! Justification. Another, adoption papers! Thank you God! Fellowship with God! Another. Sanctification! I love it. Another, hope! On and on and on. Then another. Open the package. It contains the purpose of God for your life. The good works which God has chosen for us to walk in.
Ephesians 2:10- For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
If what I mean in all this is not clear to you, then you are lacking understanding in a big slice of salvation. PREDESTINATION.
So, you're saying losing your faith is not a sin? If it's not a sin, how can it conceivably bar you from heaven?
Once again, though your ilk always deny it, you are teaching a gospel of works. You kind loves to claim it's Jesus, and Jesus only, and then start adding conditions to salvation.
If one loses faith at some point in their Christian walk (and who can honestly say they haven't had those times) and are once again lost, can they ever be saved again?
Can you give a single example from scripture where a born again believer lost their salvation? How about one who lost it and was re-saved?
Just one?
You can't. Because you people can't get it through your heads that salvation is a gift from beginning to end. Given by Jesus, and maintained by Jesus. The savior who said not even one saved person would ever be lost.
Not one.
A salvation that can be lost for any reason is not eternal, only probationary, and is not "good news" at all.
So, why don't you get off this website, go do a ton of works to reassure yourself that you are staying saved, and take your gospel of fear and doubt, that can never save anyone, with you.
The saying of someone who just wants to selectively quote scripture, rather than accept it all, it results in immaturity, as your post showed
Let me put them here...
Me, post 84,155- Well my original argument was that the works that God gave us to do are part of the endowment God gave us when He saved us.
DC- 84,173- No...(right here is the lie) your original argument was that WORKS are a GIFT just as GRACE/FAITH/SALVATION. LIE. Because you denied that I said that my original intent was that works are part of the endowment God gave us when He saved us...actually they were chosen for us BEFORE HE SAVED US. You denied that that the highlighted part was my original argument.
Go back in time...almost 200 posts back
Me- Post 83,878- Salvation is a big pile of presents. Open one box, WOW, regeneration/Holy Spirit. Open another, WOW! Justification. Another, adoption papers! Thank you God! Fellowship with God! Another. Sanctification! I love it. Another, hope! On and on and on. Then another. Open the package. It contains the purpose of God for your life. The good works which God has chosen for us to walk in...Good works are not a merit, they are one of the gifts included in our endowment. Ephesians 2:10
ME-83,879- I believe in justification by faith alone, and do not believe we can add anything to Christ’s work. I do not see works, repentance, sanctification, fruit bearing, or commandment keeping as parts we do to be saved. I see them ALL as gifts and graces of God. They are all facets on the multifaceted diamond in the ring God has given us
Exposed LIE of DC, number one.
So what say ye, DC? Were the works we do ordained for us from long ago? Does that not mean that they were given to us BY GOD?
How about answering the question?
What can separate a believer from the love of God?
have you ever thought that maybe you are just making up a false premise? Christians are supposed to do go works, bear good fruit.
I personally just want to go to Heaven, be with the Lord, and away from this sick, twisted world.
that will be my reward. I do want a 100 room mansion. i'll be happy to sit on the front porch.
and as far as our exchange yesterday, I said " I stand corrected ".
so, yes I read your posts. you insist that doing good works are a gift. well. o.k.
I say that works are a result of grace.
we both agree that Christians are to being doing good works.
let's not get greedy and want to start looking at them as merit instead of just doing the right thing because we are supposed to.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Heb10:26-29
Easy to explain away I guess on the internet
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Heb6:4-6
Easy to explain away on the internet I guess. Those who have received the Holy Spirit are born again
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you(born again Christians), as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God Gal5:19-21
What’s that chap Paul doing, warning born again believers if they live a certain way they will not inherit the kingdom of God, they cannot lose their salvation according to some.
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’[g] and, ‘A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.’2Peter2:20-22
Whats that chap Peter doing, saying Christians can end up back in the mud and turning their backs on sacred commands, they cannot lose their salvation according to some.
Jesus, in the parable of the sower said people set out on the path and then walked away, how can that be true? If you are on the path you must be in a saved state. Could go on and on, but little point methinks
Easy to explain away I guess on the internet
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Heb6:4-6
Easy to explain away on the internet I guess. Those who have received the Holy Spirit are born again
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you(born again Christians), as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God Gal5:19-21
What’s that chap Paul doing, warning born again believers if they live a certain way they will not inherit the kingdom of God, they cannot lose their salvation according to some.
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’[g] and, ‘A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.’2Peter2:20-22
Whats that chap Peter doing, saying Christians can end up back in the mud and turning their backs on sacred commands, they cannot lose their salvation according to some.
Jesus, in the parable of the sower said people set out on the path and then walked away, how can that be true? If you are on the path you must be in a saved state. Could go on and on, but little point methinks