Not By Works

[Macabeus]

So what......not the context of my referenced verse...you just cannot help but twist things hey.....more proof of your character

Did you bring it up in the Prodigal Son thread or not?

 

[Macabeus]

Lol, the context of the parable is clear, read Luke 15:1-3

So DC please answer. If a prodigal son does in that state, is he still a son?

If you say yes, then you are talking about a prodigal that didn't come back

So that's three things you denied saying that I have documented that you did say

1. A person can be saved for years and not bear fruit

2 a theoretical prodigal who does not return

3. My original meaning of works are a gift.

All documented above

Sorry, Mailmandan. I replied to the wrong post. I thought I was replying to DC.

 

[dcontroversal]

So I thought you said I was a liar about 1 and 2. But you proved I was not lying.

Number 1 you flat out ADMIT saying and believing

Number 2- if a person never stops being a son, that means even when dying in sin. But the prodigal was not a backslidden christian, HE WAS A BACKSLIDDEN JEW COMING TO JESUS. Read Luke 15:1-3

So you are the one who is looking foolish, denying you said something and then later admitting you said it, not accepting three apologies for an honest mistake I made, and repeated namecalling.

Number 3- I provided post where I clearly stated what I meant by works are a gift, ie the purpose of God He has given us, the works that He ordained before we were born for us, they are part of salvation. Not part of obtaining salvation, but what ACCOMPANIES SALVATION AND RESULTS FROM SALVATION, therefore if they are given to us BY HIM, they are gifts.

How exactly do you define gifts?

I did not deny anything other than your twist...which you have done incessantly since coming on this site.......and I go back to the original stance...works are not a GIFT and you have yet to post scripture that states as much......so...twist away pal....your character can be seen by all.....end of story

 

[dcontroversal]

Well you could ask children/the immature to stop name calling, but I doubt you will get very far.
Some peoples understanding seems to be limited to repeatedly stating: ''you are not saved by works of the law, you cannot lose your salvation, you will go to Heaven no matter what'' etc. Possibly they need to branch out/expand their understanding a wee bit. In the mean time, all you are likely to get is comments such as:
hahahahahahahahahahaha
It may be best to move on. to other more stimulating debates.

Would you say JESUS, JOHN and Elijah were immature.......probably so.........the rest of your post..............

ig·no·rantDictionary result for ignorant
/ˈiɡnərənt/
adjective

1. lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
   "he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"
   synonyms:uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unschooled, untutored, untrained, illiterate, unlettered, unlearned, unread, uninformed, unenlightened, unscholarly, unqualified, benighted, backward; More

 

[dcontroversal]

WHEWWW.......Gotta love it all...........no wonder Jesus was beaten and crucified, Paul beheaded, Peter hung upside down on a cross and Stephen stoned to death.........

The hyper religious absolutely cannot handle the truth................the simple truth....

JESUS saves by faith and it is a simple GIFT of grace.........anything beyond that are the results of said faith, salvation and grace.......

A son by birth will always be a son by birth.....it is not only idiotic, but absolutely flies in the face of the truth that ONE BORN of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED can be CORRUPTED..............and that ONE given ETERNAL life can LOSE IT and for sure JESUS must be a weak, inept, god that cannot keep his word when he promised to NEVER leave or forsake those who place trust in him...........................

 

[unclesilas]

........the rest of your post..............

ig·no·rantDictionary result for ignorant
/ˈiɡnərənt/
adjective

1. lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
   "he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"
   synonyms:uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unschooled, untutored, untrained, illiterate, unlettered, unlearned, unread, uninformed, unenlightened, unscholarly, unqualified, benighted, backward; More

Well if you believe the above applies to me, who not enlighten me concerning the scriptures, give me the benefit of your knowledge so I may be less ignorant. Please explain the following to me line by line and what Paul is stating in those verses and whom he is speaking them of.

What justification is he talking about that obviously takes time to achieve?

Why does he ask the question, ‘’does Christ promote sin?’’

What does he mean in the last sentance? I will thank you in advance for explaining it all to me.



But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:16&17

 

[Hevosmies]

Why is it we do EVERYTHING a certain way in the world, but when we get to spiritual truths we SWITCH the rules up!

If I tell you in order to learn bridling your horse you have to call this one guy to come and teach you.

In the earthly realm you would just make the call and say "Hello Sir please come help me"

THATS THE END OF THAT. If this was a spiritual truth or a scripture we would start thinking "What do i got to say when I call him? After he teaches me how to bridle my horse do i have to offer him some coffee? should i take a shower after doing it? Maybe i should sweep the stable extra clean today. "

IN OTHER WORDS.: WE OVER COMPLICATE THINGS. And it seems like SIMPLICITY IN CHRIST is almost a SIN to some these days. Acts 16:30-31 makes it clear. And this is written AFTER Jesus' death burial and resurrection so its the NEW COVENANT, even to our dispensationalist friends, AND its said to a GENTILE by the Apostle to the gentiles: PAUL.

WHAT do i need to do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
I did that now. What else? *facepalm*........

 

[dcontroversal]

Well if you believe the above applies to me, who not enlighten me concerning the scriptures, give me the benefit of your knowledge so I may be less ignorant. Please explain the following to me line by line and what Paul is stating in those verses and whom he is speaking them of.

What justification is he talking about that obviously takes time to achieve?

Why does he ask the question, ‘’does Christ promote sin?’’

What does he mean in the last sentance? I will thank you in advance for explaining it all to me.



But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:16&17

It was directed at your mouthy, uncalled for comment.......and the book of Galatians is clear...........some FOOL had taught them that their salvation had begun by faith and then was finished OFF by works/works of the law (namely circumcision)........PAUL calls that a gospel of a DIFFERENT kind with NO POWER to save, was DOUBLE cursed and all that believe it are fools and bewitched.....nice partial quote in the midst of a greater context.....HE speaks to Peter's hypocrisy and the fact that his FREEDOM in CHRIST had been examined by the supposed church pillars... James, Peter and John and then given the right hand of fellowship........his statement is clear and summed up in these truths....

We have BEEN justified by the faith of CHRIST by BELIEF
NO flesh can be or will be justified by the works of the LAW
IT is CHRIST that LIVES IN US by FAITH
WHILE BEING JUSTIFIED by CHRIST if we are found IN SIN is CHRIST the MINISTER of SIN (NO he is NOT)
IF he goes BACK and through the LAW attempts to rebuild again he is found a TRANSGRESSOR (by the law which condemns)
HE is dead to the LAW because the LAW or works of the LAW justifies NO ONE
IF righteousness comes by LAW KEEPING CHRIST DIED IN VAIN

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[dcontroversal]

Why is it we do EVERYTHING a certain way in the world, but when we get to spiritual truths we SWITCH the rules up!

If I tell you in order to learn bridling your horse you have to call this one guy to come and teach you.

In the earthly realm you would just make the call and say "Hello Sir please come help me"

THATS THE END OF THAT. If this was a spiritual truth or a scripture we would start thinking "What do i got to say when I call him? After he teaches me how to bridle my horse do i have to offer him some coffee? should i take a shower after doing it? Maybe i should sweep the stable extra clean today. "

IN OTHER WORDS.: WE OVER COMPLICATE THINGS. And it seems like SIMPLICITY IN CHRIST is almost a SIN to some these days. Acts 16:30-31 makes it clear. And this is written AFTER Jesus' death burial and resurrection so its the NEW COVENANT, even to our dispensationalist friends, AND its said to a GENTILE by the Apostle to the gentiles: PAUL.

WHAT do i need to do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
I did that now. What else? *facepalm*........

AMEN brother......................AMEN!!!!!!

 

[unclesilas]

It was directed at your mouthy, uncalled for comment.......and the book of Galatians is clear...........some FOOL had taught them that their salvation had begun by faith and then was finished OFF by works/works of the law (namely circumcision)........PAUL calls that a gospel of a DIFFERENT kind with NO POWER to save, was DOUBLE cursed and all that believe it are fools and bewitched.....nice partial quote in the midst of a greater context.....HE speaks to Peter's hypocrisy and the fact that his FREEDOM in CHRIST had been examined by the supposed church pillars... James, Peter and John and then given the right hand of fellowship........his statement is clear and summed up in these truths....

We have BEEN justified by the faith of CHRIST by BELIEF
NO flesh can be or will be justified by the works of the LAW
IT is CHRIST that LIVES IN US by FAITH
WHILE BEING JUSTIFIED by CHRIST if we are found IN SIN is CHRIST the MINISTER of SIN (NO he is NOT)
IF he goes BACK and through the LAW attempts to rebuild again he is found a TRANSGRESSOR (by the law which condemns)
HE is dead to the LAW because the LAW or works of the LAW justifies NO ONE
IF righteousness comes by LAW KEEPING CHRIST DIED IN VAIN

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Two of your three answers to my questions were correct, credit where credit is due. But the Christian is justified by faith in Christ immediately at the point of conversion, as I am sure you would agree, so what justification is Paul speaking of, for he is clearly writing of a justification that takes time to achieve

 

[Hevosmies]

It was directed at your mouthy, uncalled for comment.......and the book of Galatians is clear...........some FOOL had taught them that their salvation had begun by faith and then was finished OFF by works/works of the law (namely circumcision)........PAUL calls that a gospel of a DIFFERENT kind with NO POWER to save, was DOUBLE cursed and all that believe it are fools and bewitched.....nice partial quote in the midst of a greater context.....HE speaks to Peter's hypocrisy and the fact that his FREEDOM in CHRIST had been examined by the supposed church pillars... James, Peter and John and then given the right hand of fellowship........his statement is clear and summed up in these truths....

We have BEEN justified by the faith of CHRIST by BELIEF
NO flesh can be or will be justified by the works of the LAW
IT is CHRIST that LIVES IN US by FAITH
WHILE BEING JUSTIFIED by CHRIST if we are found IN SIN is CHRIST the MINISTER of SIN (NO he is NOT)
IF he goes BACK and through the LAW attempts to rebuild again he is found a TRANSGRESSOR (by the law which condemns)
HE is dead to the LAW because the LAW or works of the LAW justifies NO ONE
IF righteousness comes by LAW KEEPING CHRIST DIED IN VAIN

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Doesnt count! NO chapter and verse!

 

[blue_ladybug]

Doesnt count! NO chapter and verse!

Bwahahaha....

 

[TruthTalk]

So there are things that result from, accompany, and are the fruit of salvation, but are not gifts? Does that mean they are

A not beneficial

Or that


B. they do not flow from God's grace/ unmerited favor?

or

c. They are something we add to grace?

so salvation is a gift, but rewards are merited? Rewards do not flow from grace, but are
merited/earned?



ok...

So there are things that result from, accompany, and are the fruit of salvation, but are not gifts?

In your first question above about gifts you are assuming things that I never said. Further more your line of questioning such as A, B, C, takes me right back to the 12 week fundamentals of the faith class of 40 years ago. The class was beneficial because is gave me a rock solid foundation whereby I could grow my new faith in Jesus Christ.

so we can boast before God about our works, although not of our salvation?

Your profile say's that you have been a Christian since 1988 that is about 30yrs that you have been a Christian. So please let me ask you the same question; and what do you think?

I believe boasting is for Christ alone and His works, you and I will be rewarded for our works.

A. Can we boast before God about our works?

Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

 

[BillG]

I did not deny anything other than your twist...which you have done incessantly since coming on this site.......and I go back to the original stance...works are not a GIFT and you have yet to post scripture that states as much......so...twist away pal....your character can be seen by all.....end of story

Interesting that works are considered a gift.

My assumption when it comes to works is that they are what Jesus uses to separate the sheep and the goats.

So I know many people and organisations that do and promote such works, yet they are not Christian/Belivers who have confessed Jesus is Lord of their lives.

So firstly if they do such works are they gift from God?
Secondly if they do such works are they saved as a result of them?
If so then faith is not needed but only works.

If works save or keep us saved, then there is no need for faith.

When Jesus hung on that cross and for 3 hours when it was dark and God could not look upon him what was happening?

All of our sins were being laid upon him, the thing that separates us from God.
Not our lack of works.

 

[VCO]

I don't understand the reasoning why works would be a gift. For one thing the works are for another's benefit aren't they? Not for us. If you think of the gifts of Holy Spirit like healing and deliverance etc. then that too would be for others. If it's a gift at all it's not for the worker. It's the fruit of our faith in the work of God.

I would call it ministering.

Makes no sense.

Prove that the so-called gifts of Healing are REAL. A Group Students from a non-charismatic BIBLE COLLEGE went to interview, Kathryn Kulman back in the early 70's. They asked her if she had healed people with Terminal Diseases, and could she prove it, by providing a list of names from five years earlier, and Addresses of 10 of them. She said YES, and week to a file cabinet, and proceeded to copy down those ten Names and Addresses down.

They found out that while they had psychological symptoms of well being for a few days, after the supposed HEALING, all had the symptoms of the disease return, and all TEN had DIED OF THEIR DISEASE.

Conclusion, while GOD HEALS in answer to PRAYER, THE GIFT OF HEALING was a genuine MIRACLE Apostolic Gift for the Apostles ONLY, to validate the NEW TESTAMENT as it was FIRST being Spoken. He does not give the Miracle Gifts today.

Many of the so-called Faith HEALERS, are religious Con-artists, while the REST are Self Deceived.

HERE IS THE PURPOSE FOR THOSE MIRACLE GIFTS:

Mark 16:20 (NIV)
20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and
the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Two of your three answers to my questions were correct, credit where credit is due. But the Christian is justified by faith in Christ immediately at the point of conversion, as I am sure you would agree, so what justification is Paul speaking of, for he is clearly writing of a justification that takes time to achieve

If you are referencing vs. 17 I do not believe he is speaking to a different position of justification........

In Romans he writes....Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.....it is positional justification, a completed action and we have been declared innocent in Christ by faith before GOD.....

The statement-->seek to be justified is a verb in the Aorist Infinitive passive and is the same verb being used to describe that which has taken place in Christ I.E. The meaning of the Aorist Infinitive Passive is "to be have something done to one

Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous

The whole context pf chapter 2 must be taken into account........the contrast between the circumcision and uncircumcision, LAW and Grace.....

My view is simple......in light of the context and contrast of the entire chapter Paul is simply saying that when we seek to be rendered innocent by Christ (justified) and at the same time are guilty as sinners is Christ the minister of SIN because he JUSTIFIES us even while being found sinner........GOD forbid...........The LAW of GOD while condemning as GUILTY is SET aside as CHRIST JUSTIFIES US even while we are still found in sin....<-----Remember what John said....IF we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.......

I liken it to forgiving one guilty of some horrific sin or crime....I.E>...If you do something to me and I forgive you and declare you innocent of your crime am I condoning your crime by declaring you innocent even though you are guilty?

We have been declared RIGHTEOUS and INNOCENT even though we are guilty of sin by the law....EVEN now we fail and sin and are still guilty of the LAW if it was held against us....does this make Christ the minister of sin...NOPE

That is my view and I believe it bears out

 

[dcontroversal]

Doesnt count! NO chapter and verse!

Funny guy.....he has jokes HAHAHHAHAH

 

[dcontroversal]

Interesting that works are considered a gift.

My assumption when it comes to works is that they are what Jesus uses to separate the sheep and the goats.

So I know many people and organisations that do and promote such works, yet they are not Christian/Belivers who have confessed Jesus is Lord of their lives.

So firstly if they do such works are they gift from God?
Secondly if they do such works are they saved as a result of them?
If so then faith is not needed but only works.

If works save or keep us saved, then there is no need for faith.

When Jesus hung on that cross and for 3 hours when it was dark and God could not look upon him what was happening?

All of our sins were being laid upon him, the thing that separates us from God.
Not our lack of works.

AMEN brother...........the bible bears this truth out......it is not about the works.....it is about faith........the just shall live by faith.......and any result of said faith is CHRIST through us as a living sacrifice......

 

[unclesilas]

If you are referencing vs. 17 I do not believe he is speaking to a different position of justification........

In Romans he writes....Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.....it is positional justification, a completed action and we have been declared innocent in Christ by faith before GOD.....

The statement-->seek to be justified is a verb in the Aorist Infinitive passive and is the same verb being used to describe that which has taken place in Christ I.E. The meaning of the Aorist Infinitive Passive is "to be have something done to one

Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous

The whole context pf chapter 2 must be taken into account........the contrast between the circumcision and uncircumcision, LAW and Grace.....

My view is simple......in light of the context and contrast of the entire chapter Paul is simply saying that when we seek to be rendered innocent by Christ (justified) and at the same time are guilty as sinners is Christ the minister of SIN because he JUSTIFIES us even while being found sinner........GOD forbid...........The LAW of GOD while condemning as GUILTY is SET aside as CHRIST JUSTIFIES US even while we are still found in sin....<-----Remember what John said....IF we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.......

I liken it to forgiving one guilty of some horrific sin or crime....I.E>...If you do something to me and I forgive you and declare you innocent of your crime am I condoning your crime by declaring you innocent even though you are guilty?

We have been declared RIGHTEOUS and INNOCENT even though we are guilty of sin by the law....EVEN now we fail and sin and are still guilty of the LAW if it was held against us....does this make Christ the minister of sin...NOPE

That is my view and I believe it bears out

But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:16&17

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin(being a slave of sin) and have become slaves to righteousness. Romans6:17&18

Paul is speaking of new converts who seek to cross over from being slaves to sin when they come to Christ, into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness. You may come to Christ an alcoholic, habitual thief, blasphemer, someone who has multiple affairs for example and you may have been like this for decades. Though God will accept you as you are under a justification of faith in Christ, you cannot stay in that state, change has to come. For there is sin that would utterly dominate your life and stop you crossing over from one state to the other, crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. You seek such a justification of your Christianity, not by striving to defeat the sin yourself, to be acceptable to God, but by faith in Christ, you trust Jesus to get you to where you need to be.
As this justification/crossing over takes time to achieve, you will be an evident sinner whilst this is taking place. And anyone who did not understand the Gospel message, seeing someone praising and worshipping God for what Christ did for them during this time, would likely ask the question. ‘If this person is saved Christ must promote sin’ Paul immediately answers the question. ‘Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker(earlier edition) If Paul returned to what he had so hard sought to destroy, and tried to defeat the sin/obey the law in order to be justified before God he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker.
Once you have crossed over from one state to the other, you are evermore led into a life of holiness.

 

[Budman]

Actually you come against the Spirit because it is who you are and you have no argument against it.

So you belittle and defame.

And yet, you can't see you defamed me with your post.

Incredible.