Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Interestingly, I understood the eternal assurance of the believer soon as someone took me through the scripture and taught me....

The Holy Spirit bore witness to my spirit and I knew the teacher spoke truth and scripture was very clear in so many places.

We have someone who comes to this thread quite often, a very lovely lady, and she took it to the Lord in prayer and she came to the thread one day and knew that God had shown her the truth of eternal salvation.

Jesus also tells us to shake the dust off our feet. Paul is also very clear about those who preach a different message.

There is no confusion for those who preach that a saved/justified person is saved/justified eternally...that in fact is the Gospel

AMEN.........the truth is evident when one does not contradict the scriptures, reject context, verbiage, verb tense etc.......My bible tells me that when God does something it is everlasting......but hey....some worship and serve a weak, inept god that cannot keep his word and promises, nor is said god found in scripture....

 

[AllenW]

How successful have you been Allen? Last I read about Holy Spirits working is that it's His job to draw. Lots of seeds have been planted here.

You'll never know.
You haven't got there yet.

 

[dcontroversal]

Good Post, U G,

but you have to realize that there are many, many, more false religions of the same genre pretending that
they are followers of Jesus Christ...this is how they steal men's souls and make misery the master through-
out their lives...

Exactly why the number is plenteous that comes before the throne only to be cast..............

 

[dcontroversal]

I've noticed that its not so much about doing good works like feeding the poor.
Its what you DONT do. Meaning: Sin.

When people say faith + works like @GodsGrace101 is saying i guarantee he/she mainly means, not sinning like the devil.

Atleast in pentecostal background where i come from: You wouldnt lose your salvation not feeding the poor, but you would willfully sinning, like if you turned out a sodomite. Game over!

What sin is not by choice........sins is sin is sin....your break the least = guilty of the whole......and to the saved was written....where sin abounds, grace abounds the more......and what the heck is chastisement for...and who exactly does God whip..the lost or the saved??

 

[dcontroversal]

I am speaking only on Ephesians 2:8.

The measure of faith written about in Romans is speaking to the gifts that each person receives and the faith that accompanies them to be used, if you keep reading.

For Ephesians 2:8
This particular construction uses a fixed neuter singular pronoun (that) which refers neither to faith, which is feminine in Greek, nor to any immediate word which follows. (See Blass, Debrunner, Funk, 132, 2.) What all this means is that the little phrase and that (kai touto in Greek) explains that salvation is of God's grace and not of human effort.

Understood accordingly, Ephesians 2:8 could well be translated: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, that is to say, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

This faith is the instrument of salvation, not a substance but a response prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Faith is not a gift, I do not follow Catholicism and her sister churches or Calvinism which teaches that saving faith is a gift from God.
Scripture plainly teaches that God is not willing that any should perish, therefore he would not gift saving faith only to some and not to others.

Given your propensity for "disagree" and "dislike" I highly doubt I engage any further if that is the path you take.

Can it be said that God gave faith to the following people...

“And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.”

 

[dcontroversal]

This is somewhat illogical since you are saying that at some point sins are no longer paid for, then the debt was not really paid in full?

Some people make this argument that only past and present sins are paid for not future, however God is eternal not temporal, as well this also would mean we would need to live a perfect life after we are regenerated. Again makes no sense.

The blood has been applied by faith, our life is hid within Christ, the righteousness of Christ has been imputed by faith and we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise....

My bible is clear...

WHEN I see the blood, I WILL PASS OVER YOU

 

[dcontroversal]

@dcontroversal

Well it would seem my posts have earned me four X's and one hands down, how about that, should we have a competition

SAME here......I may argue the post and even rake it over the coals, but rarely give a red x or even a thumbs down....not saying I haven't but just saying it is rare thing

 

[dcontroversal]

Because the natural man can't receive things of the Spirit of God and Paul addressed Babes in Christ as still behaving as natural men, still unable to put off the old man and put on the new man, this is the divided condition they are in. Not a reason to separate ourselves from them, but to be gentle with them. "Of some making a difference puling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." There are sins of the spirit and sins of the flesh. "Let us cleanse ourselves from filthiness of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting Holiness in the Fear of God. As we have a glimpse of wisdom we are cleansed in fellowship with God and not by our efforts; but Babes in Christ struggling on their own efforts are still accepted in Christ. "Whosoever will may come and drink of the water of Life freely." Our part is to continue in Love accepting we are slow learners, and so are they. We understand that salvation is a gift from God that will bring us to maturity as we remain in fellowship with Him and that apart from Him we can do nothing: we cant walk in Love, He is the Way. Stopping short on the Journey happens to both those who believe they are eternally secure but remain unchanged because they still love this present world. I have been there and I also struggled under the law to persevere, as the law expose us that we remained unchanged. I was as a babe or little child forgiven, but I was hearing the Lord and He did not address me with the law but with compassion when I was in sin. I do understand that we cant lose God, He doesn't get Lost, "If I make my bed in hell, Lord there you are with me." But we don't own salvation in the sense that it will save our ego. This is the reason some don't understand the language of eternal security. "Whoever seeks to save His life will lose it." The thief on the cross lost his life, we are called to bear the cross, at least as men, "To suffer the lost of all things that I may gain Christ." Effortless and fulfilling as we walk in Love and no other way will do. Many in both camps acknowledge, this is the work of God, that we come to God is at His feet, thinking we arrived, but the journey just begun and its being carried by the Holy Spirit, impossible otherwise. I'm referring to obtain a crow of Life and become eternal with God. The enemy's plan is to cause confusion here...

Actually he calls them yet carnal and babes in Christ....regardless......the bible does not peddle us embracing and coddling a person or group just because they name JESUS.....most religions peddle false gospels where one must HELP JESUS do that which he said he will do.........I am under no obligation to enter into fellowship with one that devalues Christ, his work and or his promises while trampling his blood and faith under their feet.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Dcon

Something I found some years back.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Seed:

G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 44

Spiritual seed. The Word of the Lord endureth forever. Eternally. Eternal seed. Our spirit is eternal life and we have eternal salvation by that Word that endures forever.

This also ties in with the leaves of the tree of life which is sprouts in Greek. Or the exact replica of the promised "seed" that crushed the head of the serpent.

Forgot to add that the sprout is the exact replica of the tree of life, who is? We are the remnant. We are the sprouts. We are His seed!

Yep....born again from above Spiritually...........

 

[Hevosmies]

Hi H...Once we come to know the word , those who are truly saved will not practice sin...I was a heavy drinker , the LORD did not remove that drunkenness away from me in one go as He has with others , but I began to binge drink less and less...If I had not taken the seriousness of God`s word , and kept to my habit that kept me in darkness , could I class myself as saved ?
It has been a long time since I had a drink to get drunk , and this is because I am walking in the Spirit , I am not willfully sinning , but I have fallen many times since the LORD has been working with me...
God looks on our heart , He knows our motives , only reading the word of God will saturate us and remove the completeness of sin in His time not ours...
Thank God His grace and Mercy are new every morning...xox...

Praise God. Thanks for your witness.

I want to make clear that i didnt write to defend a flimflam in and out salvation. I just wrote from the perspective of what i've heard from those people.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

What gifts from God are irrevocable?
What does "the calling of God" is irrevocable mean?

Study this and you'll find that it has nothing to do with us.
We do not go to scripture with preconceived notions....
We to to scripture with an open mind and let it speak to us.

I like to follow Jesus...
Not Calvin or Knox.
It seems to me that calvinists are following a MAN and not GOD.
This is just an observation...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

What gifts from God are irrevocable?
What does "the calling of God" is irrevocable mean?

Study this and you'll find that it has nothing to do with us.
We do not go to scripture with preconceived notions....
We to to scripture with an open mind and let it speak to us.

I like to follow Jesus...
Not Calvin or Knox.
It seems to me that calvinists are following a MAN and not GOD.
This is just an observation...

I thought you believed we are not born again in this life but that is something that happens after we die

You misunderstand a lot.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I've noticed that its not so much about doing good works like feeding the poor.
Its what you DONT do. Meaning: Sin.

When people say faith + works like @GodsGrace101 is saying i guarantee he/she mainly means, not sinning like the devil.

Atleast in pentecostal background where i come from: You wouldnt lose your salvation not feeding the poor, but you would willfully sinning, like if you turned out a sodomite. Game over!

This is an interesting post H.
First of all, you really shouldn't assume what I mean about anything since I speak very clearly.

So,,
There are sins of commission and there are sins of ommision.
If Jesus says to feed the poor and we do NOT feed the poor -- that is a sin of omission.
If Jesus says not to sin and we sin .... that is a sin of commission.

So your very first paragraph is not theologically correct.
I'm sure you agree, however, with what I've said, even though in your background maybe it would not be taught this way.

I've said many times what makes us become lost and I'd like to say it again.

We all sin. We do not become lost again by sinning.
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

We can become lost again by LIVING A LIFE OF SIN.
1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

By practicing sin,,,John means living a life of sin...otherwise 1 John 1:8-10 would be a lie.
We all sin...we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus...We should not practice sin or live a life of sin.

This is because those that love God do not WANT to sin.
Those that are living a life of sin obviously no longer love God.


Another way to become lost is to abandon God.
To walk out on Him.
To stop having faith.

Our salvation is IN JESUS.
If we no longer want Jesus...we are no longer IN HIM.
Since the life is IN HIM and we no longer desire to have Him...the life leaves us.

Those who believe we cannot walk away from God are those that believe that somehow we lose our Free Will when we become saved. I've asked for passages that show we lose our Free Will but they have not been posted because there aren't any.

We have the free will to leave God whenever we want to.
If this were not true Jesus would not have stated the following:

John 15:5-6 JESUS SAID
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

Jesus says clearly:

IF anyone ABIDES (continues to live) IN ME.....

IF is a conditional word.
We must CONTINUE to ABIDE IN JESUS IF we want not to be burned up...

 

[Hevosmies]

I like to follow Jesus...
Not Calvin or Knox.
It seems to me that calvinists are following a MAN and not GOD.
This is just an observation...

NO

Thats a good CATCHPHRASE. "I follow Jesus, you follow Calvin"

since you believe you can lose your salvation I could FLIP that on you real quick, watch me:

I follow Jesus, you follow Wesley. I follow Jesus, you follow Joseph Smith.

See how easy that is.

 

[Hevosmies]

This is an interesting post H.
First of all, you really shouldn't assume what I mean about anything since I speak very clearly.

So,,
There are sins of commission and there are sins of ommision.
If Jesus says to feed the poor and we do NOT feed the poor -- that is a sin of omission.
If Jesus says not to sin and we sin .... that is a sin of commission.

So your very first paragraph is not theologically correct.
I'm sure you agree, however, with what I've said, even though in your background maybe it would not be taught this way.

I've said many times what makes us become lost and I'd like to say it again.

We all sin. We do not become lost again by sinning.
1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

We can become lost again by LIVING A LIFE OF SIN.
1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

By practicing sin,,,John means living a life of sin...otherwise 1 John 1:8-10 would be a lie.
We all sin...we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus...We should not practice sin or live a life of sin.

This is because those that love God do not WANT to sin.
Those that are living a life of sin obviously no longer love God.


Another way to become lost is to abandon God.
To walk out on Him.
To stop having faith.

Our salvation is IN JESUS.
If we no longer want Jesus...we are no longer IN HIM.
Since the life is IN HIM and we no longer desire to have Him...the life leaves us.

Those who believe we cannot walk away from God are those that believe that somehow we lose our Free Will when we become saved. I've asked for passages that show we lose our Free Will but they have not been posted because there aren't any.

We have the free will to leave God whenever we want to.
If this were not true Jesus would not have stated the following:

John 15:5-6 JESUS SAID
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

Jesus says clearly:

IF anyone ABIDES (continues to live) IN ME.....

IF is a conditional word.
We must CONTINUE to ABIDE IN JESUS IF we want not to be burned up...

You know I love you, but:
On one side you say: "We do not become lost again by sinning"
Then later on you say: "We can become lost again by LIVING A LIFE OF SIN."

The free will thing isnt an issue to me since I believe in PREDESTINATION and FOREKNOWLEDGE.

 

[Hevosmies]

I have a suggestion to brother Dcon! Maybe you should write a book (or blog) that goes through all the verses that are used to teach AGAINST eternal security.

You should do it in the same manner as you did your eschatology book (or blog). THIS IS JUST A SUGGESTIOn. But I hope you do it

Btw here is the book im referring to, I encourage everyone to read it: https://christianchat.com/blogs/book-on-the-2nd-coming-of-christ.172326/page-3

 

[GodsGrace101]

NO

Thats a good CATCHPHRASE. "I follow Jesus, you follow Calvin"

since you believe you can lose your salvation I could FLIP that on you real quick, watch me:

I follow Jesus, you follow Wesley. I follow Jesus, you follow Joseph Smith.

See how easy that is.

It's not that easy H.....

Wesley didn't INVENT the idea that we could become lost after salvation.
Jesus did.

Calvin INVENTED the idea that we are eternally saved.....IF, we're really saved. Which of course, in that theology, a person will not know till the very end. So it's really very much like Catholicism if we want to be honest. And Augustine was catholic too BTW, and they also mention AUGUSTINE a lot, of course.

I don't know enough about Joseph Smith so I'll refrain...

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have a suggestion to brother Dcon! Maybe you should write a book (or blog) that goes through all the verses that are used to teach AGAINST eternal security.

You should do it in the same manner as you did your eschatology book (or blog). THIS IS JUST A SUGGESTIOn. But I hope you do it

Btw here is the book im referring to, I encourage everyone to read it: https://christianchat.com/blogs/book-on-the-2nd-coming-of-christ.172326/page-3

This is toooo funny H...

He won't be able to do this..
Why?
Because there are TOO MANY verses that go against eternal security!

It would take him days of his time.

However, yeah, it WOULD be interesting if he takes you up on it.
Maybe he could be converted.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You know I love you, but:
On one side you say: "We do not become lost again by sinning"
Then later on you say: "We can become lost again by LIVING A LIFE OF SIN."

The free will thing isnt an issue to me since I believe in PREDESTINATION and FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Don't you see a difference between a sin....
and living a life of sin?

What did Paul mean in:

Romans 13:7-14
7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Don't you see the difference between:
1 John 1:8-10
and
1 John 3:9 ??

If we could lose our salvation by sinning...we would all be lost.

Also how do you reconcile predestination and foreknowledge?
I have reconciled these two concepts, but I'd like to hear how you believe it's possible to believe in both.

 

[calibob]

Hey guys. Lost and lose implies 'by accident.' I think 'discard' it; (Salvation. that is.) Might be more appropriate.