Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I gotta say don't you ever get tired of explaining our basics to people who haven't read their bible or have any relations with the Lord... I would really like to know since I encounter this allllll the time?!
so now we know who is behind all that purple!
Wrong about what? Prove the post wrong. Whether I sin or not has no bearing on anything posted by me.
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief (disobedience through lack of commitment) make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar (false witness by saying one thing and living another); as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness (Disobedience; unbelief. Being a false witness by saying one thing and living another) ( commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie (Unrighteousness, Disobedience; unbelief. Being a false witness by saying one thing and living another) unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
(Rom 3:1-9)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:10)
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law (the Jews which were given the oracles of GOD): that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is through (the) faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Rom 3:19-22)
Wherefore? Because they (Israel; the Jews which were given the oracles of GOD) sought it not by faith (changed heart), but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
(Rom 9:32 KJV)
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 9:33)
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the Word; His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law ) down from above
(Rom 10:3,4,6-8; Deut 30:10-14)
Romans 10:6-8 is a paraphrase of Deut 30:11-14. Paul through Christ paraphrased Deuteronomy knowing they would look it up and they would see the parallels Paul was putting forth. Deut 30:11-14 was a promise GOD was making then to HIS people. But alas they (as a whole) refused to have the changed heart; Faith in which HE was readily to give through HIS eternal and internal presence. So HE spoke it again as a future prophecy in Jeremiah 31:33. Which the writer of Hebrews repeats in 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel (those who would go the distance with GOD; never letting go) after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws (the Word; Christ) into their mind, and write them in their hearts (and in their mouths): and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10 )
Forasmuch as We are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:2-5)
For we are the Body of Christ the Temple of GOD. It is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure; Not I but Christ the Rock in we stand.
I suppose you think Paul was incontinent? Or that maybe we are? That He sinned because he could not help himself even through Christ.
What is it funny? Someone salvation is funny to you?Yeah, that's what I thought.
Do you ever actually address the posts you respond to? Whether I sin has no bearing on the posts which instigated you inquiries.
Chapter six and seven's context continues into eight. Paul proclaims in verse two of chapter eight His deliverance from the Law of sin and death which he claimed to be in service to through his flesh in verse 7:23, 25. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:4)
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:22-25)
Chapter seven's use of the word mind is dealing with head knowledge; knowing the law and desiring to serve it because you know it is good and makes sense to you to do so. This did not work for Paul nor will it work for us. The only way is Jesus Christ.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1-4)
Paul claims he had been Made me free from the law of sin and death. No longer in captivity to the Law of sin which which is in His members. HE HAS BEEN MADE FREE! That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 8:2-4; 6:6,7)
Set free from the Law of sin and death. Our old man crucified with with HIM that the Body of Sin be destroyed. That Hence forth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin through Jesus Christ. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(1Pe 2:24 KJV)
I suppose you think Paul was incontinent? He sinned because he could not help himself even through Christ.
In regards to 1Tim 1:15
He states he obtained mercy in verse 12 because he did it ignorantly in unbelief. Then in context to that he is says he is chief. Then he goes back to speaking of the mercy which he received for the things in which he did ignorantly in unbelief in verse 12. that in him first (same word as chief in the Greek) Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. In other words you can't get much worse than me and I obtained mercy.
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
(1Ti 1:12-16 KJV)
Paul did not put limitation on what GOD could do like so many what to do here. In respect to sinlessness He said,
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:12-15 KJV)
Paul proclaims in verse two of chapter eight His deliverance from the Law of sin and death which he claimed to be in service to through his flesh in verse 7:23, 25. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (Romans 7:20) _____________________________
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 8:2-4; 6:6,7)
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: For of this sort are they which creep into houses....
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
(2Ti 3:1-9 KJV)
Incontinent from such turn away. In that they resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. Their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
This is what Paul through GOD proclaimed concerning those who are incontinent; that can not help themselves even though Christ set us free from the Law of sin that is in our members.
Hi VCO,Have you Believed a FICTITIOUS account about the MAGI at JESUS' Birth?
Do you recognize this picture?
View attachment 192268
How about this picture?
Or this picture?
THEY ARE ALL FAKE PICTURES OF TELLING THE STORY WRONG, OF THE MAGI WHO CAME TO HONOR THE NEW BORN KING WITH HOMAGE.
The artists that painted them did not even READ the Story of the Magi, it is OBVIOUS.
These two pictures are Closer Biblically:
View attachment 192269
Now THOSE TWO ARTISTS at LEAST READ THE STORY in the BIBLE, even though I can point out some errors in their Pictures.
Matthew 2:1-16 (NKJV)
1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem,
2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."
3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:
6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.' "
7 Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also."
9 When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
12 Then, being divinely warned in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed for their own country another way.
13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him."
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt,
15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.
There are Parts of this Story that can be filled in only through HISTORY books. BEGINNING WITH THE MYTH THAT THEY RODE CAMELS. No were in Scripture does it say they road CAMELS, that myth was from the early Pictures by European Artists that neither read the HISTORY OF THE TRIBE OF MAGI, Nor the Biblical account of the Magi coming to see the New King.
The whole region is known as THE EAST, not just looking to the EAST of Jerusalem, so their homeland was northeast technically.
Magi, was a Tribe of Ranchers that had the history of READING everything related to WISDOM, and they RAISED Arabian Horses. This Tribe had two main sources of income, they raised Arabians to sell as WAR HORSES throughout the Mideastern Country, and their Wise Men would higher themselves out to be Wise Men in most of the mid-east Countries. Their home lands were along the western shore of the Caspian Sea, and down around the southern shore, which was fertile grassing land.
So WHY would a people who sells WAR HORSES for a Living, even want to RIDE CAMELS ? ? ? Yes, their is DESERT if you GO due EAST of Bethlehem. But MOST of the time people took the NORTHERN ROUTE. Which for the most part, followed streams along the Euphrates RIVER and then cut DOWN to Jerusalem through Lebanon.
Google maps shows the Euphrates River would have been the MOST LIKELY ROUTE. https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5231107,41.3642389,45773m/data=!3m1!1e3
Yes it jogged back up NORTH, but the Horses would have been CLOSE to a water supply, almost all of the way.
So WHY would you not follow the EUPHRATES RIVER when riding on Horseback, instead of CROSSING the Syrian Desert on Camels?
Now for another MYTH. The gold, frankincense, and myrrh, were not birthday gifts for the new King. They are Traditional Homage Gifts, and it would have been a considerable amount, enough for them to live on in Egypt, till they got to come home. Jesus was about 2 years OLD before they Magi arrived. WHY SO LONG? They saw the star the First Night, and Again, as they approached Bethlehem. During that Time they would have rode to every village in their land collecting the Homage, perhaps down into Babylon, then rode out for Jerusalem. NOT WITHOUT PLENTY OF GUARDS TO PROTECT THE HOMAGE. History tells us that most of the time the Magi rode with about 100 armed men, known to be the Fiercest Warriors around, and 10 or 12 MAGI. You thought there were only THREE, but that myth was made up, because of the three GIFTS, which I already explained they were the Traditional HOMAGE for a New King.
So How Did they Know what the STAR MEANT. After Daniel told King Nebuchadnezzar what the DREAM MEANT:
Daniel 2:48 (ASV)
48 Then the king made Daniel great, and gave him many great gifts, and made him to rule over the whole province of Babylon, and to be chief governor over all the wise men of Babylon.
The most likely explanation, is ONE OF THE LESSONS that DANIEL taught to the Wise Men was about the Star, and you thought EVERYTHING GOD DID AND SAID IS IN THE BIBLE. It seems likely that some of the things GOD told DANIEL, was for the MAGI's ears alone. Just LIKE not every conversation JESUS had and Miracles HE did are NOT IN THE GOSPELS.
John 21:25 (ASV)
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.
Please read this post before you answer and just pay attention for once....
What you post above is partly correct.
Children love the story of Christ's birth with the nativity scene and the magi...
for adult education it's good to let them know that it's not correct historically.
I do have two comments to make:
1. I don't quite see the difference between the first images and the ones you deem to be correct. Is it the age of Jesus? Please clarify.
2. No one really knows where the magi came from or who they were...it depends on which biblical scholar you wish to believe.
Some do believe that they came from the East, in which region they did use camels to travel.
Some believe they were kings, and some believe they were astrologers who had been waiting for a "king" to be born that would be different. They did use astronomy to pinpoint the star, but, of course, it was not shining over ONE house or barn or cave.
I can't remember if you mentioned that they found Jesus, most probably, when He was about 2 years old and in a house.
Mathew 2:11
Mathew 2:16
This was a good post and we should be reminded every now and then that the Christmas story is a bit off....But the important aspect of it is that God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Happy Christmas.
How does a yes answer make doctrine fail??
1 John 1:9
1 John 2:1
If Jesus gave a remedy for sin, it means He knew we would always need that remedy.
John 20:23
@VCO
In this painting, horses are used....
It's one of my favorite, BTW, Look at the magi.
The youngest one is standing up, straight.
The middle aged is slightly leaning forward and down.
The oldest is on his knees and worshipping Jesus.
Maybe HE understands this birth the best?
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...e/a/gentile-da-fabriano-adoration-of-the-magi
In this painting, horses are used....
It's one of my favorite, BTW, Look at the magi.
The youngest one is standing up, straight.
The middle aged is slightly leaning forward and down.
The oldest is on his knees and worshipping Jesus.
Maybe HE understands this birth the best?
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...e/a/gentile-da-fabriano-adoration-of-the-magi
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Well your free to have your own opinion, but either way, you were asked a question, if you were secure in your belief you would have answered it immediately and proudly,
It has everything to do with what you posted. You love to admonish others for sinning when you sin the same as everyone else.
that's an interesting read, thanks
probably most, if not all of the people represented are portraits of actual people, just as the man who commissioned the painting is found depicted as an attendant of the magi, holding a falcon. when the painting was first made and put in the chapel it was commissioned for, contemporary viewers probably could have recognized several of them. i wonder if the magi are a grandfather, father and son? a noble family, or that of local bishops? just speculation, but the difference in their ages suggests a symbolism of generations. in the time period, artists weren't really trying to accomplish realism, but used a complex system of iconography. the article spoke of the difference in postures of the three as though they were waiting for each in turn to present their gift before the King they had come to worship - possibly a courtly manner that was contemporary to Gentile's time, with no attempt having been made to research what would have been the appropriate custom for the time period depicted.
Hi Grace101, love the art work of antiquity, it is an amazing form of communication.
Beautiful Nativity scene.
Merry Christmas to you and yours, TruthTalk!"Yea Magenta", A Very Merry Christmas & Happy New Year
Give your lovely wife an extra hug from me
Wishing you all the best in the coming new year... one day at a time
Hi forum , Matthew 1:23 was the verse our Pastor Chris preached from yesterday for our Christmas Sunday Service. Many fail to keep their promises but you can trust God He always keeps His promises...Merry Christmas 
(Isaiah 7:10-16; Micah 5:1-6; Luke 2:1-7)
18) This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit. 19) Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.
20) But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21) She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.”
22) All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23) “Behold, the virgin will be with child
and will give birth to a son,
and they will call Him Immanuel”
(which means, “God with us”).
24) When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife. 25) But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
The Birth of Jesus(Isaiah 7:10-16; Micah 5:1-6; Luke 2:1-7)
18) This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit. 19) Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.
20) But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21) She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.”
22) All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23) “Behold, the virgin will be with child
and will give birth to a son,
and they will call Him Immanuel”
(which means, “God with us”).
24) When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife. 25) But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
MYTH.
REALITY, not three wise men, Only the SHEPHERDS and the Angels saw the Night of the Nativity.
Two Years Later the MAGI came:
Matthew 2:10-11 (ASV)
10 And when they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And they came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother; and they fell down and worshipped him; and opening their treasures they offered unto him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
This is Closer to the TRUTH:
Only Jesus is looks older than two.
This one looks BIBLICAL except Magi seldom traveled with less 10 Magi, and usually a 100 armed Guards.
Agree with all.that's an interesting read, thanks
probably most, if not all of the people represented are portraits of actual people, just as the man who commissioned the painting is found depicted as an attendant of the magi, holding a falcon. when the painting was first made and put in the chapel it was commissioned for, contemporary viewers probably could have recognized several of them. i wonder if the magi are a grandfather, father and son? a noble family, or that of local bishops? just speculation, but the difference in their ages suggests a symbolism of generations. in the time period, artists weren't really trying to accomplish realism, but used a complex system of iconography. the article spoke of the difference in postures of the three as though they were waiting for each in turn to present their gift before the King they had come to worship - possibly a courtly manner that was contemporary to Gentile's time, with no attempt having been made to research what would have been the appropriate custom for the time period depicted.
I particularly like the 3 magi.
The young one is standing tall and proud...he has much to learn about life.
The middle aged one is slightly bent over... he understands more and is willing to give more to God. I had done a study on this painting a few years ago and it was very interesting....
The oldest man is on his knees. He understands his need for God...he's willing to bow down to Him in reverence.
A lot could be read into the entire painting.
The only other comment I could add is that, yes, no attempt to properly represent the customs of the time period of Jesus' life and place of birth. What the artists knew...let's remember...is what the universal (catholic) church taught them. It was the only church around - thus universal - and it was not even allowed for the laity to read the bible! So they tended to translate everything in their own customs and times since that's all they knew.
Have a happy Christmas!
Agreed. It says a lot.Hi Grace101, love the art work of antiquity, it is an amazing form of communication.
Beautiful Nativity scene.
As I'm sure you know, paintings were used to teach about Jesus and His story.
People could not read in this era.
Ditto for the stained glass windows in churches that represented both persons and events.
Have a blessed Christmas!
