Not By Works

[BillG]

EVERYONE who is born again, watch out for Babies in Christ, for this DECEIVER will go after the LAMBS.


2 Timothy 3:13 (NRSV)
13 But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived.

Who will?

 

[J70x7]

EVERYONE who is born again, watch out for Babies in Christ, for this DECEIVER will go after the LAMBS.


2 Timothy 3:13 (NRSV)
13 But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived.

Do you know by whom and what year was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up? The answer to this question helps clear up the debate.

 

[posthuman]

They actually "don't believe" in "walking in them".

i went back and checked to see how old this strawman is.

I just posted this in another... Abraham believed was Counted righteousness then did a work to show or prove his faith... Circumcisions.. You can't throw out works.. they prove your faith

post #9.

77,000 posts later and we've still got people accusing believers of loving wickedness and iniquity solely on account of the gospel of salvation through God's grace being preached.

no one ever said 'we're throwing out works'
no one ever said 'we don't believe in doing good'
these are presumptuous accusations.



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i'd like to remind us of Romans 14:1

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations​

​

this ((kjv)) is a really unwieldy translation imo.
niv & esv miss the point too, i think

without quarreling over disputable matters ​

but not to quarrel over opinions​

here it is in ylt, which i see as closer to the pure truth of it

him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings​

when i see various english translations having pretty significant differences, i've come to realize that often it's one of two things underlying it; it may be that there is manuscript variation, or it may be that it is a particularly difficult set of words in the original language. that can be from lack of clear modern understanding of what the meaning of the words really are, from difficulty of expressing them in our language, or from the words themselves being understood well enough, but their pairing and arrangement being enigmatic.

caveat: i don't know greek i'm just sharing what i've found.
but here in Romans 14:1 the strange phrase 'doubtful disputations' is two words

διακρίσεις διαλογισμῶν
diakriseis dialogismōn

diakriseis is used 3 times in the NT. here, 1 Cor. 12:10, and Heb. 5:14
in 1 Corinthians it is the gift of the Spirit translated as 'discernment'
in Hebrews it is also 'discernment' or 'distinguishing' -- ((quoting niv)):

but solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil​

so this is what diakriseis means, to distinguish or discern.

dialogismon is used 14 times in the NT. here's a link to a list of occurrences: this is a link
it's most often translated as 'reasonings' or 'thoughts' or 'motives' -- it's the word in Romans 1:21, "..they became in their imaginations.." and in 1 Corinthians 3:20, "the Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain"
in a couple places, Philippians 2:14 & 1 Timothy 2:8, it's been translated 'disputations' or 'grumbling' or 'dissension' -- so one can see where the kjv, 'doubtful disputations' gets the 'disputations' from -- though 'doubtful' for diakriseis sure seems way off.
still, thinking about these 2 passages, one can see how the sense of the word still has to do with thoughts & reasoning, a person's mental logic or argument. the 'dissension' or 'grumbling' is the thoughts a person has being contrary to other thoughts.

so hopefully if you are following along with my own 'dialogismon' ((we get 'dialogue' from this word)) you see why i said i think the YLT of Romans 14:1 expresses the sense more clearly than the mainstream english versions:

him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings​

and here is the point ((yay a point!))
there's a lot of animus among us.
a lot of it, in my observation, is because we are not keeping this -- each of us sees certain others, by their dialogue, as weaker in faith on some point or another. i think in truth we are; because we are for each other, each given different measures of faith which complement each other, that we be as one body with many parts growing together into the whole.
we're supposed to accept one another in this, but not to 'discerning' each other's motives & reasoning as evil -- unless some of us really are here with purely wicked intention to knowingly sow false doctrine, what we're saying we see in scripture, each 'as through a glass darkly,' we are all here in this webforum with the intent to communicate it to each other, that intent being in our hearts as for the Lord. the one who eats, does so towards Him. the one who does not, does so towards Him.
((at least we ought to be))
looking further into Paul's own dialogue in Romans 14 ((which i'll skip here for brevity's sake, this post already being really long..)) i hope we'll see a principle of how we ought to act in love toward each other laid out, that has application far broader than questions about some peeve or annoyance about food or holidays. and i hope we'll every day grow more conformed to this image of perfect love





thank's for reading my drivel ♥

 

[J70x7]

i went back and checked to see how old this strawman is.



post #9.

77,000 posts later and we've still got people accusing believers of loving wickedness and iniquity solely on account of the gospel of salvation through God's grace being preached.

no one ever said 'we're throwing out works'
no one ever said 'we don't believe in doing good'
these are presumptuous accusations.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​

i'd like to remind us of Romans 14:1

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations​

​

this ((kjv)) is a really unwieldy translation imo.
niv & esv miss the point too, i think

without quarreling over disputable matters ​

but not to quarrel over opinions​

here it is in ylt, which i see as closer to the pure truth of it

him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings​

when i see various english translations having pretty significant differences, i've come to realize that often it's one of two things underlying it; it may be that there is manuscript variation, or it may be that it is a particularly difficult set of words in the original language. that can be from lack of clear modern understanding of what the meaning of the words really are, from difficulty of expressing them in our language, or from the words themselves being understood well enough, but their pairing and arrangement being enigmatic.

caveat: i don't know greek i'm just sharing what i've found.
but here in Romans 14:1 the strange phrase 'doubtful disputations' is two words

διακρίσεις διαλογισμῶν
diakriseis dialogismōn

diakriseis is used 3 times in the NT. here, 1 Cor. 12:10, and Heb. 5:14
in 1 Corinthians it is the gift of the Spirit translated as "discernment"
in Hebrews it is also 'discernment' or 'distinguishing' -- ((quoting niv)):

but solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil​

so this is what diakriseis means, to distinguish or discern.

dialogismon is used 14 times in the NT. here's a link to a list of occurrences: this is a link
it's most often translated as 'reasonings' or 'thoughts' or 'motives' -- it's the word in Romans 1:21, "..they became in their imaginations.." and in 1 Corinthians 3:20, "the Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain"
in a couple places, Philippians 2:14 & 1 Timothy 2:8, it's been translated 'disputations' or 'grumbling' or 'dissension' -- so one can see where the kjv, 'doubtful disputations' gets the 'disputations' from -- though 'doubtful' for diakriseis sure seems way off.
still, thinking about these 2 passages, one can see how the sense of the word still has to do with thoughts & reasoning, a person's mental logic or argument. the 'dissension' or 'grumbling' is the thoughts a person has being contrary to other thoughts.

so hopefully if you are following along with my own 'dialogismon' ((we get 'dialogue' from this word)) you see why i said i think the YLT of Romans 14:1 expresses the sense more clearly than the mainstream english versions:

him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings​

and here is the point ((yay a point!))
there's a lot of animus among us.
a lot of it, in my observation, is because we are not keeping this -- each of us sees certain others, by their dialogue, as weaker in faith on some point or another. i think in truth we are; because we are for each other, each given different measures of faith which complement each other, that we be as one body with many parts growing together into the whole.
we're supposed to accept one another in this, but not to 'discerning' each other's motives & reasoning as evil -- unless some of us really are here with purely wicked intention to knowingly sow false doctrine, what we're saying we see in scripture, each 'as through a glass darkly,' we are all here in this webforum with the intent to communicate it to each other, that intent being in our hearts as for the Lord.
((at least we ought to be))
looking further into Paul's own dialogue in Romans 14 ((which i'll skip here for brevity's sake, this post already being really long..)) i hope we'll see a principle of how we ought to act in love toward each other laid out, that has application far broader than questions about some peeve or annoyance about food or holidays. and i hope we'll every day grow more conformed to this image of perfect love





thank's for reading my drivel ♥

Do you know by whom and what year was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up? The answer to this question helps clear up the debate.

 

[posthuman]

You guys are just so wrapped up in your false gospel and triune god you are pitiful! you dont make sense, you dont know your Bible and constantly post scriptures that condemn yourself.You resort to ridicule because you cant think of anything else! usually a last resort!

oh Suzy, this is this same thing 'those guys' say about 'those other guys'



we must all be careful about 'roots of bitterness'
there is 'a more excellent way'

 

[posthuman]

That is a wonderful point LB. We all claim Faith, but what Faith do we have? Did we create our own, or do we have "The Faith of Abraham".

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

What a good point.

Thank you brother

indeed just as i was saying

before Him whom he believed, ​

even God, ​

who quickeneth the dead, ​

and calleth those things which be not as though they were
(Romans 4:17)​

 

[VCO]

Who will?

I has been my experience, that DECEIVERS, like Suzy37, will turn to go after Lambs, that do not know their Bible as thoroughly as a mature Christians. WE NEED TO HELP the Lambs for they are the ones that can be lead astray, by every wind of doctrine.

Acts 20:30-31 (HCSB)
30 And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them.
31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears.

 

[Suzy37]

Have Sabbath services and lunch and need to get on computer to be able to copy and paste scriptures so will be this afternoon before I get back to answer your post

 

[J70x7]

I has been my experience, that DECEIVERS, like Suzy37, will turn to go after Lambs, that do not know their Bible as thoroughly as a mature Christians. WE NEED TO HELP the Lambs for they are the ones that can be lead astray, by every wind of doctrine.

Acts 20:30-31 (HCSB)
30 And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them.
31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears.

Do you even know the Bible? Do you know by whom and what year was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?

 

[J70x7]

indeed just as i was saying

before Him whom he believed, ​

even God, ​

who quickeneth the dead, ​

and calleth those things which be not as though they were​

(Romans 4:17)​

Do you know by whom and what year was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?

 

[posthuman]

I have to look inside all the time, to make sure I am not one of them. Because I know sometimes it is me not showing love. And have to confess..

me too bro, me too

 

[Studyman]

oh, did i misquote the verse?

did i even give an interpretation?

sometimes it seems like there is a lot of stuff in your head that doesn't happen to actually exist outside of it.
i think you should consider this: this here, click it please

You could try and do something new Post. You could actually address the post, and the questions asked therein.

 

[posthuman]

Do you know by whom and what year was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?

have you considered starting a thread dedicated to this question?
i get the impression you have an answer to it you're itchy to transmit.

 

[posthuman]

You could actually address the post, and the questions asked therein.

perhaps you missed this post and this post

& i still really think you should give some thought to this post too

 

[Studyman]

God also gave the requirments of the law

Keep every word. Or else

Unless you have never sinned

The law will condemn you, You are without hope.

Yet you still want to follow a law which condemns you. And act like ti will save you.
It is sad that people have been led astray as to what saves us, And want to be like the jews

That's your religion, your opinion. Certainly not supported by Every Word of God as you have been shown over and over.

Jesus, as the Word of God, created a Priesthood and "work's therein" for the cleansing of sins until He came to earth as a the Messiah.

"Keep every Word or else" is the willful rejection of Christ's Mercy given to mankind since Adam and Eve sinned. You keep preaching this falsehood even after so many have shown you the Word's of God which expose it as false.

And for what reason? Why would you deny the great Mercy God has shown His People through out His Word?

 

[J70x7]

have you considered starting a thread dedicated to this question?
i get the impression you have an answer to it you're itchy to transmit.

The answer to this question will help clear up the works debate.

 

[J70x7]

Am I the only one here who knows by whom and what year was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's your religion, your opinion. Certainly not supported by Every Word of God as you have been shown over and over.

Jesus, as the Word of God, created a Priesthood and "work's therein" for the cleansing of sins until He came to earth as a the Messiah.

"Keep every Word or else" is the willful rejection of Christ's Mercy given to mankind since Adam and Eve sinned. You keep preaching this falsehood even after so many have shown you the Word's of God which expose it as false.

And for what reason? Why would you deny the great Mercy God has shown His People through out His Word?

Some people just make it too easy.

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

People wake up. Are you going to listen to Paul. Who quoted Moses, Who both wrote as inspired By God.

Or a jewish roots sympathiser or modern day pharisee who waters down the law of God to puff himself up?

 

[TruthTalk]

Oh my I am devastated! What will I do? sounds like a good time to write some articles to me , at least talking to myself l have some intelligent conversation !

You guys are just so wrapped up in your false gospel and triune god you are pitiful! you dont make sense, you dont know your Bible and constantly post scriptures that condemn yourself.You resort to ridicule because you cant think of anything else! usually a last resort!

Hi Suzy37, will you ever stop playing the blame game. If you do try taking the gigantic plank from your eye before trying to remove it from someone else, and then you will be as happy as this little eager beaver.

 

[VCO]

SABBATH

WE CELEBRATE FIRST FRUITS, the RESURRECTION OF THE CHRIST, which is always celebrated on the Morrow after Sabbath.

SABBATH has always been sundown on what we call Friday, but to the JEW that is the beginning of a new day; to
sundown late Saturday afternoon. ALWAYS HAS BEEN, and ALWAYS WILL BE, so Sunday is NOT the Christian Sabbath,
we cerebrate First Fruits.

There is a rule that WE THE PRIESTHOOD IS CHANGED FROM ONE TRIBE TO ANOTHER, there MUST BE A CHANGE IN THE LAW TOO:

Hebrews 7:11-14 (NJB)
11 Now if perfection had been reached through the levitical priesthood—and this was the basis of the Law given to the people—why was it necessary for a different kind of priest to arise, spoken of as being of the order of Melchizedek [both KING and HIGH PRIEST] rather than of the order of Aaron?
12 Any change in the priesthood must mean a change in the Law as well.
13 So our Lord, of whom these things were said, belonged to a different tribe, the members of which have never done service at the altar;
14 everyone knows he came from Judah, a tribe which Moses did not mention at all when dealing with priests.

Romans 8:23 (HCSB)
23 And not only that, but we ourselves who have the Spirit as the first-fruits—we also groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (NASB)
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Leviticus 23:10-11 (ASV)
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are come into the land which I give unto you,
and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring the sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 and he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah, to be accepted for you:
on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.