Not By Works

[Magenta]

 

[UnderGrace]

@Ariel82

You can continue to lie about it or use other names but natural selection is an observable scientific fact.

The definition of natural selection among scientists varies..... "change over time" is an observable fact if that is what you mean...however natural selection as defined by many evolutionary theories is not compatible with a theistic creative view.

Christians have no intellectual obligation to evolutionary theories since it is continues to unravel.

The equation of God's creative power with the theory of natural selection and random mutation lacks credibility according to evolving understanding of DNA which demonstrates the origin of new information.

It is faulty because to state that God used mechanism "Y" (natural selection and random selection) to create when scientists are discovering that mechanism "Y' lacks creative power.

So then the creative power of "God" guiding the process really does not fit into this model of theistic evolution so easily,

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you Magenta, posthuman, VCO and all who have contributed to this discussion on the correct biblical interpretation of Genesis and the origins of humanity and our four legged best friend, "SARA"......

Possibly many like myself are engaged in "learning" about this subject of creationism verses evolution. So thank you and God bless you for your contributions.

Believers can wait for science to prove itself, until then we have no intellectual obligation to accept it.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you Magenta, posthuman, VCO and all who have contributed to this discussion on the correct biblical interpretation of Genesis and the origins of humanity and our four legged best friend, "SARA"......

Possibly many like myself are engaged in "learning" about this subject of creationism verses evolution. So thank you and God bless you for your contributions.

Another thing to remember...

Evolution teaches death before man. Genesis teaches man before death. Incompatible.

 

[VCO]

All U.S. Citizens who are CHRISTIANS, it is our OBLIGATION and PRIVILEGE TO VOTE TOMORROW, if you have not done so already:

Your Veterans, paid for your FREEDOM TO VOTE.


Romans 13:1-8 (HCSB)
1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.
2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
4 For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience.
6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the ⌊authorities⌋ are God’s public servants, continually attending to these tasks.
7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

 

[VCO]

I used to collect via a page scanner from OLD Late 1800's books the clip art that found interesting and still useful.

Maybe you could use some of it in your artwork.















Some of my images from those old antique public domain books are too large for this format, but I can shrink them down to have the size. This is just a sample of what I have saved. If it would be useful, I could send you the rest on a private message.

 

[Endoscopy]

It is called a catch 22......tell the truth/be honest and maybe get banned or lie and go against your working for dogma and by a false belief lose salvation....

Did you see the movie where catch 22 was created? It was a humorous movie about WWII bomber crews. To go back to the states they had to serve a specific number of missions. If a person was declared unfit for duty and didn't complete the number of missions they were in limbo just sitting there doing nothing. Probably not factual but made a good story line.

 

[Endoscopy]

They may have externally done them in Christ's name (just like Benny Hinn and other false teachers) yet Christ NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved/not genuine believers. Allow that to sink in. So anyone who has ever prophesied in the Bible or cast out demons etc.. was not doing the "works" that God foreordained for His people to walk in? In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Works of God or works of man?

The key point is they "THOUGHT" they were saved based on their works. Trusting in their so called wonderful works for salvation is NOT giving Christ credit for all their deeds. It's giving themselves credit. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost no matter how many so called wonderful works that we set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain eternal life.

None of these scriptures sting me. You really sound full of yourself.

No deflection at all. You keep focusing on the effect but fail to see the root cause of the problem. UNBELIEF. You can condemn Mainstream Preachers all you like, but SDA's/Hebrew Roots/misguided teachers of the law are no better. Same judaizing religion, different century.

Sounds like a cult to me. False religion kills and ONLY Jesus saves.

I don't brag about my works. I brag about CHRIST. Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. I do not reject God's Commandments. I reject your perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

Christianity is not a man made religion. I don't falsely preach that Christ did not save these many people in Matthew 7:22 because they were not "good enough." I told you that prior to my conversion, while still attended the Roman Catholic church several years ago, that's how I saw it then, but as a believer now, I don't see it that way. Your interpretation falls more in line with not "good enough" - did not obey all the right commandments to obtain eternal life - works salvation.

What works like me? I have not done those works in Matthew 7:22 and my motivation for doing good works that pertain to living God and loving my neighbor as myself is LOVE, not pride and expectation. You remind me of the Jews in John 6:28 who asked Jesus, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” (works salvation) In verse 29, we read - Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

God's instructions do not make me blind. Mixing law and grace keeps you blind. The god of this world had blinded the minds of those who DON'T BELIEVE the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Believers have already been saved (from the PENALTY of sin) through faith (Romans 5:1 - justification). Yet believers have not yet been saved (from the PRESENCE of sin - glorification).

It sounds to me like you are bitter and maybe felt like you never fit in with mainstream churches, so you withdrew to your house church with 15 angry cultish people.

These were NOT many "Christians" in Matthew 7:22. You need to get that straight! Jesus NEVER KNEW THEM. Too bad they did not do the will of God (John 6:40) and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Then they would have been born again, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and became new creations in Christ (Acts 10:43-45; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 5:17).

I agree with Paul and it's you who is judging me in regards to the Sabbath day. Turning keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for the Church under the new covenant is not obeying the Lord. You are really mixed up and bitter.

In the analogy, leaven represents sin, and Paul says that just a little leaven is sufficient to leaven the whole lump of dough. In contrast to the OT Passover feast celebrated annually, believers continuously celebrate the feast of the new Passover -- Jesus Christ. As the Jews in the OT celebrated Passover with unleavened bread, believers celebrate their continual Passover with unleavened lives.

I totally agree with your post. The sad thing today is all of the big protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers that are there for the money they get access to. Gary North wrote a book called "Crossed Fingers" where he documented the takeover of Presbyterian USA in 1932. Now only the sub denominations and many independent churches still preach the gospel message. That means that although a little less than half the people go to church only a splinter hear the gospel message. Therefore this country is secular to a very great degree.

 

[Endoscopy]

I used to collect via a page scanner from OLD Late 1800's books the clip art that found interesting and still useful.

Maybe you could use some of it in your artwork.

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Some of my images from those old antique public domain books are too large for this format, but I can shrink them down to have the size. This is just a sample of what I have saved. If it would be useful, I could send you the rest on a private message.

I enjoy those art pieces. One picture depicts the Crucifixion. It like almost all those pictures has an error. The nails went through the wrist between the bones. The force of the weight of the person would tear through the flesh of the hand and the body would flop forward. Also they used a piece of wood as a washer to hold the arms and legs from pulling out of the nail.

 

[Endoscopy]

5 minute rule again.
I read information from archaeologists who examined several bodies of people who were crucified. They saw the marks on the wrist bones from the nails. A few bodies still had the nail and wooden washer still attached since it went through the heel bone.

 

[VCO]

I enjoy those art pieces. One picture depicts the Crucifixion. It like almost all those pictures has an error. The nails went through the wrist between the bones. The force of the weight of the person would tear through the flesh of the hand and the body would flop forward. Also they used a piece of wood as a washer to hold the arms and legs from pulling out of the nail.

I heard a Christian DOCTOR say the same thing. It had to be in the WRISTS, because the nails in the Palms would have TORE right through in a matter of minutes. It does not VIOLATE what Scripture says, because the JEWS considered the WRISTS TO BE PART OF THE HAND. You can feel that indention in your Wrists where you can pierce right thru without hitting any bones.

Here is the most famous of the Bible Illustrators of the mid 1800's Gustave Dore, and again he places the NAILS in the Wrong Place.

 

[posthuman]

I enjoy those art pieces. One picture depicts the Crucifixion. It like almost all those pictures has an error. The nails went through the wrist between the bones. The force of the weight of the person would tear through the flesh of the hand and the body would flop forward. Also they used a piece of wood as a washer to hold the arms and legs from pulling out of the nail.

yes
even Caravaggio, whose work i love very much, got it inaccurate. bugs me too



detail, note location of scars on His hands:



but you know,
none of this is actually accurate. painters commonly used as models people who were sponsoring the painting, or who the painting was meant to be given to, and so on. and of course, is that really Jesus' appearance? pff. no, it's an archetype that developed in art over centuries, and it achieves its purpose in the language of the painting in that the figure is immediately recognizable as meant to depict Christ, just like a word we all know, in the language that we know, even though God confused our languages and no human tongue is probably the metaphysical 'true' set of sounds of the tongues of angels, of divine language. even moreso, language itself is always representative of concepts and ideas. i say your name, is it you? the sound wave i create to pronounce it? it's a moniker, a placeholder, a tool used for the construction of communication.
so though i fault Caravaggio here, i don't. like me, he is only man, beautiful in his time, in whose heart the Lord has set eternity, yet so that he cannot find it out. and he is communicating to me with this arrangement of dust on a canvas, and even tho not faultless, he accomplishes more of his intent here than i'm worthy to ask of any man.

 

[posthuman]

no scars on the palms in this one tho

Matthias Stomer, Der ungläubige Thomas (1641-49)

 

[theanointedsinner]

I think I found dcon's wife

Dear Future Husband | a letter for David on our wedding day

 

[dcontroversal]

I think I found dcon's wife

Dear Future Husband | a letter for David on our wedding day

Hilarious..............HAH

 

[Ariel82]

@Ariel82



The definition of natural selection among scientists varies..... "change over time" is an observable fact if that is what you mean...however natural selection as defined by many evolutionary theories is not compatible with a theistic creative view.

Christians have no intellectual obligation to evolutionary theories since it is continues to unravel.

The equation of God's creative power with the theory of natural selection and random mutation lacks credibility according to evolving understanding of DNA which demonstrates the origin of new information.

It is faulty because to state that God used mechanism "Y" (natural selection and random selection) to create when scientists are discovering that mechanism "Y' lacks creative power.

So then the creative power of "God" guiding the process really does not fit into this model of theistic evolution so easily,

https://www.britannica.com/science/natural-selection

Natural selection, process that results in the adaptation of an organism to its environment by means of selectively reproducing changes in its genotype, or genetic constitution

†*******

Basic definition.

The main difference I have with traditional evolutionist is the belief that the world is evolving into superior more intelligent species.

I agree that life forms are getting more complex but I believe it's a devolution where bottleneck events cause the lose of genetic diversity and mutations are harmful for the population not beneficial adaptations.

We see this in the Bible where the genetic diversity of humans steady decrease per generation causing recessive diseases to become more prevelant. Thus having God give laws against marrying your siblings, when during Abram time he married his half sister Sarai.

We see how bottleneck events causes certain traits to die out.

In truth I believe in what I refer to as devevolutiin of the world: the world didn't evolve from microorganisms to complex organisms. It devolved from the perfect pairs of animals, plants and humans. Natural selection is still true.the difference is the beginning (Genesis) and the end (Revelation 21 & 22).

The middle is observable testable scientific fact.

Natural selection works only if you have organisms who ALREADY have different traits within a population. Then the ones better adapted to the current environment live and reproduce MORE than the ones with less advantage traits...eventually the less advantage traits could die out , which is bad because if the environment changes the who species could die out because it no longer have the traits needed to live. Diverse traits God placed within our and animal DNA that may not be expressed unless the enjvornemt brings it out in us.

We have untapped DNA code we carry around. Science doesn't know why, but I believe it's part of God's design.

When we eventually pollute this world so badly, those genes might allow humans to keep living on this Earth even when 1/3 of the waters are poisoned and the trees have been destroyed. We already see how the American hardwood trees are dying from disease or invasive pests brought by humans from other places.

North Carolina election ads love to talk about Genx and the poisoning of the local drinking water

Adaptation of animals, plants and humans are built into our DNA.

Expression of genes are not set in stone at birth, some can be turned on and off according to the environment. An example is our ability to tan and the production of melanin or even the functions of the liver or stomach to digest our food. The genes get activated in specific cells to produce what we need.

True science explains how the world God create works according to the Natural Laws He has established.

Just because humanity doesn't understand the Laws of God, doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Ariel82]

Another thing to remember...

Evolution teaches death before man. Genesis teaches man before death. Incompatible.

If you start evolutionary theory after the fall of man, then your objection falls flat.

Darwin never stated that death came before man. People have added to evolutionary theory things like the Big band theory and other Materialistic aethist assumptions that are not orginally part of evolutionary theory.

 

[UnderGrace]

Darwin never stated that death came before man

How does Darwin's evolutionary theory work without death?

 

[Ariel82]

How does Darwin's evolutionary theory work without death?

How does starting evolutionary theory after the fall of Adam work?

Cuz that is what I said...your question makes no sense and shows a lack of reading comprehension of what I wrote.

 

[Ariel82]

Anyway I didn't come here to debate evolution...so yeah not gonna respond anymore to you undergrace.

There are plenty of folks who can explain it or other more appropriate threads the discussion could be had on