All of the branches mentioned in John 15:2 are IN HIM (saved people). Jesus is not talking about cosmetic Christians. Cosmetic Christians are not IN HIM. He is talking about Christians IN HIM (saved Christians). Robertson got it wrong because he is an OSAS person and has to twist the scripture his direction. If you untwist it to say what it was meant to say, you find that it is proving that OSAS is not a biblical doctrine.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Robertson interjected into John 15:2 a concept that twisted the scripture to get it in line with OSAS. He introduced 2 kinds of branches. A cosmetic branch that would be taken away, and a saved branch that would not. But he got it wrong. Jesus only talked about 1 kind of branch. That kind was those branches IN HIM. Cosmetic branches are not IN HIM and so a careful read eliminates this twisted kind of branch out of the scripture and only leaves IN HIM (saved people) that can be taken away. Proves OSAS not a stable doctrine.
John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit (faith without works is dead) and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
*So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
*You need to rightly divide the word of truth.
NO!
I BELIEVE that YOU have a Different MEANINGS to Christian Terms than I DO.
Therefore YOU WILL HAVE TO DEFINE YOUR TERMS FROM NOW ON.
PATH is a WORKS RIGHTEOUS TERM, it indicate you are not saved until the end of your life.
YOU ARE SAVED PERMANENTLY the Moment you can BELIEVE in JESUS CHRIST from your HEART, as your LORD.
That involves the HOLY SPIRIT bringing Conviction, Confession, Birthing your Human Spirit Into Eternal LIFE, and other things that happen the first hour or less that you GENUINELY LOVE HIM. You are 100% SAVED and 100% LOVING JESUS FROM THE HEART. And Falling Out of LOVE WITH HIM is a TOTALLY FOREIGN TERM. In cause you do not recognize the TERM: "HEART", that is NOT IN YOU HEAD, once you are genuinely Born Again you have TWO MINDS, the Mind of the Flesh which lies between your ears, and the MIND of your HUMAN SPIRIT, that Lies in your HEART.
EVERYTHING ELSE you mentioned, including LOVING OBEDIENCE has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. It is because of GOD's LOVE having been at SALVATION, poured into your HEART, and like a SEED it SPROUTS, manifesting LOVE FOR GOD and Others.
NO, the Holy Spirit has confirmed that these are proofs of Eternal Security.
You have proven to me that much of what you believe, is Doctrinal Mis-Interpretations.
That is not my opinion, IT IS THE OPINION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN ME.
Have you ever had a conversation with your TEACHER the Holy Spirit?
Have you ever had a conversation with CHRIST?
In John 15:2, Jesus said "no fruit" not little fruit IN CONTRAST with those who produce fruit. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean *(speaking to his disciples, all except Judas Iscariot - John 13:10-11)* because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Judas Iscariot is a good example of a self-attached branch that did not abide in the vine. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas." - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
Where did Jesus say that in John 15? Does God grace on a salvation curve? No fruit = cut away and burned. In Matthew 13:23, we read - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
Where did Jesus say that in John 10:27-29?
Again in John 15:2 Jesus is not talking to self attached branches (unsaved persons). He is talking to those branches that are
IN HIM (saved persons).
So your last question, where did Jesus say that the only way you can be snatched out of his hand is you and your unwillingness to produce fruit for his kingdom is found at John 15:2, not at John 10:27-29. When Jesus says those branches IN HIM that produce no fruit will be taken away, is simply other words for you can be snatched out of my hand if you do not produce fruit.
Christ tells me that those branches IN HIM (saved people) who produce no fruit will be taken away. The Holy Spirit has confirmed that biblical doctrine to me. So that is why I try to be like Christ as much as I can in this world. I fall short of that goal many times, but I have the capacity to repent and the Holy Spirit tells me that I have been forgiven, but try harder.
I am a branch IN JESUS. I do not want to be taken away. I do not want to be snatched out of his hand because of my disbelief or lack of faith, or lack of obedience, or lack of love and charity and good works, so I try harder, looking forward to the day when I can be told, "well done my good and faithful servant, enter into my kingdom".
I know that is what you believe. I and 1/2 of the other Christian population believe that you are saved only when you believe and have the Holy spirit baptism and water baptism and live the commandments, and follow what Jesus did, and love and have charity, and do good works all the days of your life. Then and only then, will Jesus profess that he knows you and you will be welcome into his kingdom.
You think a little different than we do. You say that you are saved the hour you believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit baptism, eternally. I can actually see how you can believe that from the group of scriptures that you have memorized.
But there are a whole body of scriptures that insist that you produce fruit after you have been saved or after you are a branch IN JESUS. If you do not produce, it does not matter that at one time you had the Holy Spirit come to you, if you are not producing, you are either not listening to him, or you are ignoring him, or in fact you may even be rejecting him, which leaves you to find your own way in the dark.
So we believe salvation is a process that involves belief, baptism of water and the Holy Spirit, faith, trust, obedience, love, good works., and enduring to the end, all of which are biblical doctrines.
You believe salvation is done and over the hour you believe and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Other things such as faith, trust, obedience, love, good works, enduring to the end, follow the creation of your new person, but are not going to stop you from being saved if you do not actually produce fruit. (which the scriptures say otherwise).
NO, NOT ALL.
That is why MANY will be shocked when they are send to the LAKE OF FIRE. That is the definitive difference between Between BORN AGAIN and not born again.
ONLY Born Again Believers will be SAVED, the others are on the Broad Road to the Destruction of Hades/HELL:
Matthew 3:10 (NCV)
10 The ax is now ready to cut down the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. {NOT ALL - You count way to many as BEING saved people.}
Matthew 7:19-20 (NCV)
19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 In the same way, you will know these false prophets by what they do.
John 15:1-5 (NRSV)
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower.
2 He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit.
3 You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you.
{Thank You, another OSAS verse, and I missed that ONE.}
4 Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.
Matthew 7:21-23 (NRSV)
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'
"Knowing HIM" is that inner, personal, LOVE Relationship with HIM as LORD of your LIFE.
Matthew 13:49-50 (NASB)
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
That Gnashing of Teeth is Bitterness towards GOD. Why are they so BITTER? Because they think they earned the right to go to Heaven. That is the absolute danger of those who preach Works Righteousness.
In John 15:2, Jesus is not talking about, "in the body of Christ (which usually refers to the church) under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established". It is talking about each individual that represents a branch in the vine. And more specifically it is talking about those branches in the vine that are IN HIM.
So obviously there are branches in the vine that are not receiving nourishment from him (unsaved persons) and will die and be taken away and burned. But there is also branches in the vine that are receiving nourishment from him (saved persons). It is these saved persons (branches IN HIM) that he is talking about.
Whether they live in his time or any time until the end of the world, it does not matter (you seem to what to make a big deal about that nobody was baptized by the HS yet. So what. You are missing his point) This is an allegory that withstands the breadth of time. It is appropriate to all generations of people.
The fact that Jesus is talking about saved persons being taken away for not producing fruit, says that OSAS is a faulty doctrine, and not biblical.
I know I have asked this before, but I can only remember some of your thoughts about rightly dividing the word. Does that mean dividing the word between OT doctrine and NT doctrine? Just a small explanation of that. Thank you.
Sorry, but according to the scripture, I am right. Here is the scripture:
John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
In vs 2, what do you think Jesus means when he says: Every branch IN ME?
What it means to me is there are 2 kinds of branches. Those kind that are NOT IN HIM (not saved) and will die on the vine for lack of nutrition. Then there are those branches that are IN HIM (saved people) that do receive nutrition from Jesus. It is these branches that Jesus is talking about in vs 2. Saved people IN HIM can lose their salvation if they do not produce fruit.
The gnashing of teeth are going to be exhibited by these people
1) those people who suddenly realize that this whole Jesus thing is real and they are caught short, having rejected Jesus.
2) those people who think that their belief and good works were all that was needed have EL with God and Jesus.
3) those people who think that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they are saved in the KOG.
Those who believe and have faith, and trust, and keep the commandments, and have love for God and their fellow men, and because of that love produce much fruit for the KOG, and endure to the end will not be gnashing their teeth, but will be enjoying a wonderful EL with God and Jesus. So keep up the good work and you will have EL with God and Jesus.
It's amazing how we interpret the Bible differently.
One of the big issues for me is interpretation is based on our life experiences.
We can read something into it based on our emotions based on what we have gone through and those dear to us have gone through.
We should never let our emotions dictate faith and truth, but should always allow the truth to dictate our emotions which increases faith.
It is the truth sets us free, not our emotions.
If Jesus allowed his emotions to dictate the truth then none of us would be talking on this thread.
One of the big issues for me is interpretation is based on our life experiences.
We can read something into it based on our emotions based on what we have gone through and those dear to us have gone through.
We should never let our emotions dictate faith and truth, but should always allow the truth to dictate our emotions which increases faith.
It is the truth sets us free, not our emotions.
If Jesus allowed his emotions to dictate the truth then none of us would be talking on this thread.
Christ tells you the branches in him are saved and produce no fruit will be taken away.
No fruit to start with or With no interest in bearing fruit and becoming like Jesus were never saved in the first place.
What you really believe is that OSAS is false and that a person can bear fruit but choose not to and then are snatched out of the hand of Jesus by the Father (as you posted earlier) and your response to a post I made you said we can snatch ourselves out of the Fathers hands.
But you are the man who says if we are not baptised in water we will not be saved, if we die without forgiving someone we will not be saved.
Not seen a reply to that.
Your post
You obviously think he had said this.
Please back it up
He said it a long time ago, I am not going back to find it. But through the months, I have referred to that statement many times and decon has not refuted it.
Decon really believes that 90% of Christians are on the wrong path to EL.
You DISREGARD what I tell you THAT I BELIEVE, and then just say: I know that is what you believe.
You are TOTALLY unbelievable.
You Got the 50% right though. That is what the Bible Says are those that are NOT BORN AGAIN when HE appears in the clouds and sends the archangel to call out HIS BRIDE:
Matthew 24:39-42 (TLB)
39 people wouldn’t believe what was going to happen until the flood actually arrived and took them all away. So shall my coming be.
40 "Two men will be working together in the fields, and one will be taken, the other left.
41 Two women will be going about their household tasks; one will be taken, the other left.
42 "So be prepared, for you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.
Luke 17:34-36 (TLB)
34 That night two men will be asleep in the same room, and one will be taken away, the other left.
35 Two women will be working together at household tasks; one will be taken, the other left;
36 and so it will be with men working side by side in the fields."
Amen! Matthew 15:12 - Then the disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Amen! In John 15:2, Jesus said "no fruit" IN CONTRAST with those who bear fruit. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. All of the disciples EXCEPT Judas Iscariot. John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”
In John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.
Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! Apart from faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ, we would stand before God in our own filthy rags of self righteousness.
