Not By Works

[Ariel82]

I guess not.

For some folks yes..for others no.

Hopefully some have been able to articulate their faith and doctrines better through conversation.

 

[Shamah]

Yes, the Law will be there to judge those who try to keep even part of it. I however am dead to it and in Christ.

But Paul says with Law or without Law it is the standard of judgement

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.”[/FONT]

 

[Cee]

Apparently you don't agree with these scriptures I posted. Or you think your understanding of this one sentence from Paul wipes out the rest of the Bible.

I'm just saying since it was Jesus that saved us, maybe we should listen to ALL His instructions and not just those which allow us our version of "freedom".

A perfect example of this is the scripture you use to support your freedom.



Paul just got through saying.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Shouldn't we consider this verse or the implications of it?

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

We are free from death if we are Christ's, we are free from deception if we are Christ's. But I don't find anywhere in the Bible where we are free from His Word's which last forever.

I don't have a problem with you, I just see that your religion and the teaching of the Word which became Flesh are different.

I just wanted to point this out in case you didn't see it, or for others who may be reading to consider.

I don’t have an issue with you either. My freedom includes loving people. He empowers me to do so. You’ll notice all of those things Paul listed are not done if we love God and love one another as we love ourselves.

But let’s go a bit deeper, Paul is actually saying this isn’t who you are anymore.

“But YOU were washed, you were cleansed, and you were justified...”

Context.

 

[justsomeone123]

So......faith alone is what saves...works do not add or top off salvation like a mug of beer in a pub!.....Well...maybe in your religion....

humble yourself brother if you want to hear what jesus (the word of God)has to say there is no need to mock and insult each other....are you saying we shouldn't drink a beer?

 

[graceNpeace]

I agree context is key. and considering the entire word.

This is clear "the old command from the beginning":

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

This is nonsense - you are reposting the same silly argument that you tried on me a day or so ago...

I pointed out to you that vs 8-11(the ones you conveniently leave out) tell one what John is talking about - and it is NOT the Torah

Since your error has already been pointed out to you prior to this post - your attempt to invoke the same out of context meaning of i John 2:1-11, just smacks of dishonesty!

 

[Cee]

But Paul says with Law or without Law it is the standard of judgement

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”


Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.”

Yes I agree, Paul is saying that we are judged by the Law, because He is writing about our need for Christ. But we have to look at all of Romans here. Would you like me to post Romans 2-3 for you? Because you’re posting one verse that doesn’t mean what you’re saying it does. This isn’t saying people in Christ are judged by the Law. What do you think it means to be IN Christ? What does it mean to become His righteousness? The judgment of God IN Christ is for me not against me. This is the greater covenant we have with Christ as our Mediator. We HAVE peace with God, we HAVE eternal life.

 

[Shamah]

But Paul says with Law or without Law it is the standard of judgement

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”


Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.”

This is nonsense - you are reposting the same silly argument that you tried on me a day or so ago...

I pointed out to you that vs 8-11(the ones you conveniently leave out) tell one what John is talking about - and it is NOT the Torah

Since your error has already been pointed out to you prior to this post - your attempt to invoke the same out of context meaning of i John 2:1-11, just smacks of dishonesty!

so when he says "The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning." it is erased by the next 2 verses?

yeah sure...

1 John 2:23-24,23 No one denying the Son has the Father. The one confessing the Son has the Father as well."24 As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father."

here we can simplify:



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

 

[Shamah]

Yes I agree, Paul is saying that we are judged by the Law, because He is writing about our need for Christ. But we have to look at all of Romans here. Would you like me to post Romans 2-3 for you? Because you’re posting one verse that doesn’t mean what you’re saying it does. This isn’t saying people in Christ are judged by the Law. What do you think it means to be IN Christ? What does it mean to become His righteousness? The judgment of God IN Christ is for me not against me. This is the greater covenant we have with Christ as our Mediator. We HAVE peace with God, we HAVE eternal life.

I know the letter to the Romans well, I have read it prbably more than any other book in the Bible, over 100 times.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Yahshua said the Law wil not pass...

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail." [/FONT]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…"

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
The Law does not save us yet it is the rightsous standard of Yah. In the covenant ratified by Yahshua Hebrews 7 says the Law has been transferred to His authority...

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”[/FONT]

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[graceNpeace]

so when he says "The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning." it is erased by the next 2 verses?

yeah sure...

Who said anything about it being erased??!!???
That is just you trying to put words in my mouth...

I told you the truth, and that is that the meaning of that old command is explained in the following verses - and this is now the third time I am telling you this!

The "old command" is NOT the Torah!

 

[Shamah]

When we give an account, I will point to His works for my righteousness. And you can point to yours. That’s your choice. I hope you follow the Law really, really, really good for your own benefit. And I pray He will be merciful in the places where you did not.

yeah you are putting this on me, this I never said, in fact I said more than one the Law does not save, you are proof of those who say "self justified" when anyione says the Law is not done away. Not having an honest conversation but saying I stand without Messiah, His blood is my reconciliation to YHWH... you never really access what I say, you do in part and then put your own spin on it, and you never even answered my question from the beginning of this convo about something you beleive....

 

[Cee]

I know the letter to the Romans well, I have read it prbably more than any other book in the Bible, over 100 times.

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Yahshua said the Law wil not pass...


Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."



Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…"




The Law does not save us yet it is the rightsous standard of Yah. In the covenant ratified by Yahshua Hebrews 7 says the Law has been transferred to His authority...


James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”

Cool, if you believe the Law doesn’t save, game on. I did notice even the Scripture you just quoted says the Law is loving one another. Stay free by faith in Christ.

 

[Shamah]

Who said anything about it being erased??!!???
That is just you trying to put words in my mouth...

I told you the truth, and that is that the meaning of that old command is explained in the following verses - and this is now the third time I am telling you this!

The "old command" is NOT the Torah!

If you know what it is not then you would have to know what it is, so...

Im all ears, what is "The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning."

 

[Cee]

yeah you are putting this on me, this I never said, in fact I said more than one the Law does not save, you are proof of those who say "self justified" when anyione says the Law is not done away. Not having an honest conversation but saying I stand without Messiah, His blood is my reconciliation to YHWH... you never really access what I say, you do in part and then put your own spin on it, and you never even answered my question from the beginning of this convo about something you beleive....

Actually, I deleted that post after I wrote it because I realized you didn’t say what I wrote. I apologize for misunderstanding you. And I’m sorry you saw it before I deleted it. And what was your initial question?

 

[Shamah]

Actually, I deleted that post after I wrote it because I realized you didn’t say what I wrote. Sorry you saw it before I deleted it. And what was your initial question?

OK, no worries, honest mistake, I misread things also.

It was about the "all things are lawful"

I say murder, adultery, stealing, etc are not lawful.

I wanted your explanation on how all things are lawful or how you see it.

This is what started me in saying that the Law is the righteous standard in this particular matter I think.

 

[Studyman]

I don’t have an issue with you either. My freedom includes loving people. He empowers me to do so. You’ll notice all of those things Paul listed are not done if we love God and love one another as we love ourselves.

But let’s go a bit deeper, Paul is actually saying this isn’t who you are anymore.

“But YOU were washed, you were cleansed, and you were justified...”

Context.

Yes, we are supposed to be a changed person. But Why are you cleansed, washed, justified?

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

And how do we do that? By corrupting ourselves? By creating our own religion? Our own High Days, our own images of God? Our own "good Works"?

Or do we "Walk even as He Walked".

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (In the Word which became Flesh) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Man's) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What is the difference between Paul's teaching here, and the Word's of the Word which became Flesh in Jer.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (Word which became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths,(That God hath before ordained) where is the good way,(Good Works) and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

I appreciate your reply, I long for an intellectually honest discussion about these things. Please open your mind a moment and show me how these two scriptures are not saying the same thing.

 

[Cee]

OK, no worries, honest mistake, I misread things also.

It was about the "all things are lawful"

I say murder, adultery, stealing, etc are not lawful.

I wanted your explanation on how all things are lawful or how you see it.

This is what started me in saying that the Law is the righteous standard in this particular matter I think.

Thank you.

Now, I better understand where you’re coming from.

I believe Paul is saying that in Christ he has freedom, but the point is in Christ, our heart desire is to bring God glory.

The finer point for me is that the gospel and relationship with Christ changes our heart so we naturally follow the Law of Love without trying to keep it. Because the idea of trying to keep it, says we aren’t yet transformed by Christ. I believe God does write His laws on our heart and mind, they are an inner observance from righteousness not for it. In this we prove the goodness and power of our God. His grace changes sinners into sons who joyfully follow Him and His ways.

 

[Shamah]

Thank you.

Now, I better understand where you’re coming from.

I believe Paul is saying that in Christ he has freedom, but the point is in Christ, our heart desire is to bring God glory.

The finer point for me is that the gospel and relationship with Christ changes our heart so we naturally follows the Law of Love without trying to keep it. Because the idea of trying to keep it, says we aren’t yet transformed by Christ. I believe God does write His laws on our heart and mind, they are an inner observance from righteousness not for it. In this we prove the goodness and power of our God. His grace changes sinners into sons who joyfully follow Him and His ways.

I can say I agree with this, as I believe and know He can change the heart.

Many people use "all things are lawful" to say when in Christ anything one dois is not sin, you seem not to take this path, but rather those in the Messiah will not desire sinful things. Again in this I agree, but with the added note that sin is still sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

yet most dont know what the letter or the spirit of the law is but make teir own non-Scriptual meaning.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here is an example of the Letter v the Spirit for those who have no clue what Israel did 2,000 years ago and still do;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 5:22, “These Words [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a loud voice, and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 6:8, “and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 11:18, “And you shall lay up these Words of Mine in your heart and in your being, and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Spirit or letter? The Spirit says one thing The letter can be twisted continually[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is how Judaism “keeps” the “letter” of the Law and not the Spirit:[/FONT]
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -
Tefillin (Askhenazic: /ˈtfɪlᵻn/; Israeli Hebrew: [tfiˈlin], ),[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]תפילין [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]also called phylacteries (/fɪˈlæktəriːz/ from Ancient Greek φυλακτήριον phylacterion, form of phylássein, φυλάσσειν meaning "to guard, protect"), are a set of small black leather boxes containing scrolls of parchment inscribed with verses from the Torah. They are worn by male observant Jews during weekday morning prayers.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...lin.jpg/599px-IDF_soldier_put_on_tefillin.jpg[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Rather than have the Law in their heart they “followed it” letter letter for letter, they tied the paper on which the Law was written to their head and arm.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The proper implication of this Law would be to Spiritually binding them to your hand by doing the Laws in ones life. Spiritually binding them as a frontlet between your eyes would be keeping them in your mind.…[/FONT]

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Do you keep the very law you peddle......nope, so what value does your law blend false gospel accomplish? Nothing but condemnation!

 

[Cee]

Yes, we are supposed to be a changed person. But Why are you cleansed, washed, justified?

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

And how do we do that? By corrupting ourselves? By creating our own religion? Our own High Days, our own images of God? Our own "good Works"?

Or do we "Walk even as He Walked".

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (In the Word which became Flesh) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Man's) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What is the difference between Paul's teaching here, and the Word's of the Word which became Flesh in Jer.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (Word which became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths,(That God hath before ordained) where is the good way,(Good Works) and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

I appreciate your reply, I long for an intellectually honest discussion about these things. Please open your mind a moment and show me how these two scriptures are not saying the same thing.

Sure! I like these discussions myself.

So, for me Christ is the end of righteousness for all those who believe. And faith is what pleases God, walking with Him is done in faith. That He is enough, He is with me, and He is continually changing me. One Scripture that comes to mind says, we purify ourselves through the hope we shall be like Him, even as He is pure.

Where I think we fall in error is not drawing a line in the sand. There is before the cross, where we are under the lesser principles and after Christ where we now live from unity with His Spirit. The good works come from resting in Him. And like a branch, we receive life giving nutrients from Him our Vine, and fruit of the Spirit is born over time.

Where I still struggle, there is an invitation to know Him and His freedom greater. In this He is continually forming me and working all things out for me to be like Him. I am His son.

 

[dcontroversal]

humble yourself brother if you want to hear what jesus (the word of God)has to say there is no need to mock and insult each other....are you saying we shouldn't drink a beer?

What I said was clear enough and had nothing to do with pride......but make no mistake...I will defend the one correct message of salvation tooth and nail!