Not By Works

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am sorry. I have not said it is impossible to not be angry at people.

Yes, when you went by peterjens, you did say this. We had a very long conversation and you said it was impossible to never get angry or resent if you have to be around other people. This was why you came to the conclusion that anger in your heart cannot possibly be murder as Jesus said.

I have said anger is an appropriate response in certain circumstances.

Yes, you have said this also. This gets into whether it is WITH cause or WITHOUT cause. If you are angry at your brother WITHOUT cause, it is murder. So, for instance, if I am angry with a brother and resentful and trying to cut him with my words because he has been sharp and nasty with me, I only have cause to not forgive his debt IF I have never been guilty of anger, resentment and cutting someone with my words. And since I, of course, have done this, my cause disappears. This is why let he who is without sin throw the first stone is so crucial, along with "without cause."

I think you are extending legalism into emotional flare-ups?

No. It would be legalism to say I have always kept the law to not murder because I have never strangled anyone to death. To know that I am a murderer even though I have never physically strangled anyone to death is the opposite of legalism - the spirit and truth of the matter.

Is it a sin for a parent to be angry with their child?
Is it a sin for a teacher to be angry with a pupil?
Is it a sin for a husband to be angry with their wife or the wife with their husband?

Only if it is without cause. And "you hurt my feelings" is without cause unless you yourself have never hurt someone elses feelings.

You appear to be claiming this is murder? Please help me understand you reference points.

The reference points are these:

If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

The man who has his debt forgiven by God who then demands payment from someone else instead of forgiving their debt will be thrown into prison until he pays the last farthing.

I say to you if you have anger in your heart without cause at your brother, you are guilty of murder and the judgement.

All of those reference points should make a man cry out to God to forgive him of his sins. They should cause him to hunger for true righteousness in his inner man. But if he cannot see his murder, he will not repent and ask for forgiveness. He will just claim to have always followed the law to not murder all of his life. (Which is legalism and is seeing the letter of the law but not the spirit.)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So you believer anger in any context is murder.
To you is getting angry murder. So you are hit accidently by someone and your get angry.
Opps you just murdered them. Or you resent the way someone greets you at the door,
opps you just murdered them. You seem to be a mass murderer, who cannot distinguish
between natural reactions and choosing to focus anger on individuals.

And you are not listening to Jesus. He specifically said brother, not neighbor and it is only
mentioned in the gospel of Matthew, once, so not a big teaching.

Something about me you need to know. In school growing up a particular boy liked starting
fights. I was not bothered and mainly ignored him. Once I got irritated and got into a fight
but even then I quickly stopped. I have always loved people, and wanted to find a way of
understanding and resolving situations. So to talk about anger and resentment so much
is not something I have a problem with, rather maybe the opposite, not reacting enough over
situations.

This would require another topic, which would be: And Who Is My Brother?

 

[blue_ladybug]

LLH is PeterJens?

You sneaky dawg...

 

[Magenta]

I've learned to discern whether or not to consider a person a real believer by how they act, not by the correctness of their doctrine. And I don't mean how they act in isolated circumstances and under various provocations, but what characterizes them overall. Some people are very consistent in their abuse of others in this forum and that tells me to not consider them born again. There are others who I consider to not have accurate doctrine but by the way they treat others I feel safe in considering them a true fellow believer.

The interesting thing is that is the one thing that fake believers can't fake. In the end, they can't be good people. They are the opposite of believers. Generally speaking, believers are characterized as being good natured but can get caught up in the moment and act badly, while unbelievers act badly but occasionally get caught up in the moment and act good. And genuine believers are good at receiving rebuke and correction. Unbelievers, hardly ever. This is how I discern who to trust as a brother and who not to.

Knowing Christ is not about having doctrinal excellence and accuracy. We show we know Christ, and he knows us, by how we treat people.......especially our enemies, those who oppose us.

You condemn yourself with your own words.

 

[LightLoveHope]

this thread- page 2899, post #57977, I gave you the definition of grace.

page 2900, post # 57994, you rejected that definition.

so there, in case you forgot. I did not.

Hi gb9,

Jesus is a gift of grace through the cross.
You believe grace freely given, does not expect a response if accepted.
One may not pay for the gift, but accepting it does not mean there are no obligations.

When Paul calls us slaves to righteousness.
When Jesus says we need to walk the narrow path, obey and follow.
This might give you a clue.
Or when Jesus says we must carry our crosses daily and walk after Him to be worthy
of Him, you appear to be ignoring all this.

Or Paul saying we must live Holy, pure, blameless lives, without even a hint of
sexual immorality.

In fact scripture is pouring, literally pouring obligation and calling to live Gods
way, you have to be willfully blind to not accept this. I would say, brain dead,
but then maybe reading Jesus's words that a foolish man does not put His words
into practice might put such things into context.

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matt 7:26-27

Ever hear of a nervous breakdown. Sounds like a crash of the house of someones
personality. So this is not just a spiritual reality, but an emotional one.

Funny how the blind are blind to their own blindness. Maybe the foolish are so foolish
they just want to repeat it, to really hit home with the point.

 

[joefizz]

it must be a southern thing . . ?


don't the cool people in joe's neighborhood say "that part" when they recognize the singular, crucial nature of a statement?

no we say phrases like "that was awesome" or "tell it brother".

 

[LightLoveHope]

This would require another topic, which would be: And Who Is My Brother?

Hi Stunned,

Your problem is this. Jesus showed anger. He showed anger at Israel, and the money
changers. He showed anger at the pharisees and the teachers of the law.

One might even say He showed violence at them.
But He also never sinned. And He is our example.

Where is it said we should not go to war in anger, or exercise justice without
anger? What about using a rod on ones children or a slave?

The problem is many like yourself are keen to excuse your lack of emotional
understanding and control and then say it shows it is impossible to walk with the gifts
of the Holy Spirit.

But look at Paul, where is the resentment for his beatings, ill treatment, injustice,
persecution etc. It is simply not there. He had found a place of peace in Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi gb9,

Jesus is a gift of grace through the cross.
You believe grace freely given, does not expect a response if accepted.
One may not pay for the gift, but accepting it does not mean there are no obligations.

When Paul calls us slaves to righteousness.
When Jesus says we need to walk the narrow path, obey and follow.
This might give you a clue.
Or when Jesus says we must carry our crosses daily and walk after Him to be worthy
of Him, you appear to be ignoring all this.

Or Paul saying we must live Holy, pure, blameless lives, without even a hint of
sexual immorality.

In fact scripture is pouring, literally pouring obligation and calling to live Gods
way, you have to be willfully blind to not accept this. I would say, brain dead,
but then maybe reading Jesus's words that a foolish man does not put His words
into practice might put such things into context.

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matt 7:26-27

Ever hear of a nervous breakdown. Sounds like a crash of the house of someones
personality. So this is not just a spiritual reality, but an emotional one.

Funny how the blind are blind to their own blindness. Maybe the foolish are so foolish
they just want to repeat it, to really hit home with the point.

YES! There must be a response to the kindness of God freely given!
The response is a contrite heart.

YES! The path is narrow.
It is widening the path to compromise our Lords words and say that anger in my heart without cause is not murder. It is walking on the path to have a contrite heart in the matter.

 

[benhur]

Jesus' point is to the Pharisees (and those under the law) that they need Him. He came to fulfill the law. But if you're not in Him, you're under the gentile law. So you better get IN Him. How do you get in Him? You become reborn in the Spirit. Dead to yourself and alive to Him. We are now in Christ. And if we are in Christ, the law no longer is our tutor. The law was given to show us our need for Him. Now that we are in Him, we are not slaves and free. We are simply free. Free in Christ. And this freedom is to be used to freely love one another just as Christ loved us.

Are we free from having to forgive each other? Matthew 6:15.

 

[longtrekker]

The word would be "dissonance" not "dissidence."

My sediments exactly !

 

[Magenta]

The problem is many like yourself are keen to excuse your lack of emotional
understanding and control and then say it shows it is impossible to walk with the gifts
of the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that you are a liar who rather constantly misrepresents what people say.

 

[joeyruready]

Obviously anger is not sin. Or dont you know where it is written, "do not let your anger carry you off to sin. However it is also written "man's anger rarely is about the righteousness of God." Our emotions are always perfect. They are part of our spirit. They are a perfect representation of the condition of our SOUL

 

[Tommy379]

The problem is that you are a liar who rather constantly misrepresents what people say.

Magenta is giving the smack down.

 

[Magenta]

Magenta is giving the smack down.

I would like Stunnedbygrace to know that her brothers and sisters in Christ understand perfectly well that what she says is that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit of God working in her that she can accomplish what God would have her do... which is quite the opposite of what the liar just said.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Stunned,

Your problem is this. Jesus showed anger. He showed anger at Israel, and the money
changers. He showed anger at the pharisees and the teachers of the law.

Jesus being angry is not my problem. He was not angry without cause. He could have stoned everyone to death and his judgement would be correct because He was without sin. My problem comes if I think I, who am NOT without sin, can do the same.

The problem is many like yourself are keen to excuse your lack of emotional
understanding and control and then say it shows it is impossible to walk with the gifts
of the Holy Spirit.

To the best of my knowledge I have not had a lack of control in here with you so I don't understand why you think I am keen to excuse myself for any lack of control.

I have never said it is impossible to walk without the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. Doesn't my control of my tongue, which you seem to think is UNcontrol of my tongue, show the influence of the Spirit and His fruit in my life? And if I one day lost control of my tongue, wouldn't my sincere and tearful apology to my brother show the gifts and fruits of the Spirit in my life?

But look at Paul, where is the resentment for his beatings, ill treatment, injustice,
persecution etc. It is simply not there. He had found a place of peace in Christ.

Lord help us to all be like Paul! He was beaten and he loved. He was ill treated and he forgave. He was persecuted and he blessed. He looks so very much like our Lord! And it was accomplished in him from start to finish through trust!

 

[preacher4truth]

Seems fairly sanctimonious this "lying and misrepresenting" thing as if one were exempt when it is so obvious my brother SovereignGrace preaches the necessity of repentance yet was lied about as if he didn't preach that truth.

 

[LightLoveHope]

YES! There must be a response to the kindness of God freely given!
The response is a contrite heart.

YES! The path is narrow.
It is widening the path to compromise our Lords words and say that anger in my heart without cause is not murder. It is walking on the path to have a contrite heart in the matter.

Here is the problem. I do not have an anger issue.
Anger always has a cause, which may not be legitimate and may be.
We are a people of peace and love so anger should be unusual.

Your interpretation of brother appears to be your neighbor.
So I am not supporting anger, or its use, or have an issue with it.
I am cautious though being as strong as you are on anger, knowing how badly
people are at anger repression.

So the narrow path is about walking like Jesus. So I wonder what appears to
be your issue, like I am not a brother in Christ following Jesus.
Do I know you? Is this walk I know a walk you know? Because you are shaking
my belief we have fellowship.

Or are you a blast them away type american, if they are a threat?

 

[Endoscopy]

Disagreements about scripture happened in the early church. The elders got together and created the Apostles Creed to define who is and isn't a Christian. Anything outside this is considered that we agree to disagree. This came about with an early version known as the Roman Creed dates to the second century. The current version dates to 341 AD. And a commentary on it is dated to 390 AD. Anything outside this creed is OK to disagree about. Most of the comments on this board fall into that category.

Here is the Apostles Creed These facts define Christianity and can't be changed or argued with.
THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.

 

[Endoscopy]

Here is the problem. I do not have an anger issue.
Anger always has a cause, which may not be legitimate and may be.
We are a people of peace and love so anger should be unusual.

Your interpretation of brother appears to be your neighbor.
So I am not supporting anger, or its use, or have an issue with it.
I am cautious though being as strong as you are on anger, knowing how badly
people are at anger repression.

So the narrow path is about walking like Jesus. So I wonder what appears to
be your issue, like I am not a brother in Christ following Jesus.
Do I know you? Is this walk I know a walk you know? Because you are shaking
my belief we have fellowship.

Or are you a blast them away type american, if they are a threat?

Jesus became angry so the problem is not the anger but what you say and do when angry.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It is odd to be on a thread with people saying I am a liar.

Anger - how is this an issue in salvation? How is this an issue in purity and holiness?

My point about the translation of "without cause" can be looked up.

Now if my walk in on the narrow path, does my interpretation on anger, though I do not
have an anger issue, need to be right before I qualify? Do I need a theological degree
to walk this path?

Who is your God, guys? Calling someone a liar is a very bad witness. It corrupts you,
defiles your souls, and causes sin to enter your lives. Maybe that does not concern you
but it does me. I do not wish to be guilty of causing you to sin.

What strikes me is I share simple scripture and truths that have made me think since I
was a child. They are to me life and death. So saying liar, just causes you a problem
not me. Listen to Jesus,

I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
John 10:10-12

This life He brings to us through the cross is love, cleansing, eternity, freedom,
overcoming. Paul describes it like this

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5:22-25

Are you sharing here with this Spirit or with something else?

Maybe the western six gun should come to your aid, lol.