Not By Works

[7777pinacled]

You are the one that put my character in a bad light in your post #57584. Here is what you said:
You should be more concerned with the lovers of self who use Jesus to justify their hypocrisy.

So I responded by saying is my faith and trust in Jesus compromised by my doing good works? Because you obviously think that because I talk about good works I am somehow a lover of myself and even use Jesus to justify my hypocrisy. You want to talk about an odd statement from one bible-reading Christian to another bible-reading Christian.

What that statement says to me, loud and clear is: if I do not believe the way you believe 100%, then I am a lover of myself and I use Jesus to justify my hypocrisy.

And BTW, what hypocrisy do I justify?

magenta may have been a little effected by the thread.
personally i have avoided this thread for its very premise, we should be peacable amongst one another.
typically a q and a is simple enough for corresponding with one another in writing.
it helps us learn from one another.

 

[BillG]

LLH,

Who are the sinners who do good things that God values?

Every living person on the planet, outside His people.

So why are his people saved and those who are not is people not saved?

After all both do good works that God values as you say.

 

[Shamah]

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

guarding the Commands of יהוה

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

the Belief of יהושע

Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Aḏam did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

--------------------------

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”[/FONT]

 

[LoveGodForever]

So why are his people saved and those who are not is people not saved?

After all both do good works that God values as you say.

Hi Bill, same reason as all through time and God's WORD, "depart from my you who SIN I never knew you" (Matt 7:23)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[dcontroversal]

The more you lie about what I am saying, it just deludes you and anyone who wants
to listen to you.

You think that if you had a pure loving heart you would share as you do? No.
You would prize the love and grace that resides in any hearts, because this is rare,
and mainly people are over burden with hurt, pain and sin.

The problem with our hearts is always they will justify not changing and paying a
price of sacrifice for love and life, but that is what Jesus calls us to every day.

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?"
Luke 9:23-25

I would please ask you one question. A man who asks His followers to do the above,
do you think he would then say, I do not mind how you live your life? No.
You would have to be deluded to think this man, this Lord, Messiah, God, the creator
would say or mean such a thing.

Another post with a lot of hot air ^^^^^, no substance and nothing more than opinion from a working for sinless perfectionist.....and your cited scripture has nothing to do with gaining eternal salvation/life.....context alludes you once again!

 

[dcontroversal]

According to your belief system, I don't have to worry a bit. I believe and I have faith, and I trust Jesus, therefore I am saved. (in past tense). If I decide to obey the commandments of Jesus or not, it is of little concern, since I have been saved. That's how it works, right?

And if that is not right, tell me where I am wrong?

The Gospel-->Faith alone by grace saves a man eternally, seals them by the Holy Spirit, justifies them before God and sanctifies them positionally in Christ forever.

Your gospel-->faith embellished with immersion and works, must be maintained and is losable

No power in your false gospel...read GALATIANS, Romans etc......

 

[BillG]

LLH,

Who are the sinners who do good things that God values?

Every living person on the planet, outside His people.

Hi Bill, same reason as all through time and God's WORD, "depart from my you who SIN I never knew you" (Matt 7:23)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

The thing I was addressing was not unrepentant sin.

But doing good things.

LLH was talking about the good things that a believer and non believers do that God values.
So my point is what is the difference between the two?

After all the non beliver has no reason to repent because they have done nothing wrong.

 

[dcontroversal]

The facts are in your posts. Even in this post, using words like "nothing but hot air", is inappropriate for a good discussion on the doctrines of Christ.

How can 2 good Christians be so far apart in their beliefs?

Two cannot walk together unless agreed...Jesus said this and your gospel/root is false.....it is that simple....the bible is clear on what saves a man eternally....what you espouse and push does not equate to truth......

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."


Liars will tell you this is about justification before man, it is not, for it says: "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This belief is unable to save him.[/FONT]"
[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

How bout embellisments based on God. Read an embellisment by Jesus himself in Matthew 6:15. Or did Paul do away with this saying?

Where does that verse state anything about salvation, losing salvation and who exactly is he addressing.............

 

[dcontroversal]

Of the two, who goes away justified in what he has said and done? The one who does many good works of law or the one who is contrite?

Only those who know they are sick need a doctor......simple as!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Peter, it's a simple question! What is taking you so long to type the answer?

He is typing a 4 or 5 paragraph opinionated, worldly, religious argument after 15 minutes of debate within himself.........

 

[dcontroversal]

he is thinking of how to spin the answer into insulting you and saying he is holy, righteous , and pure.

You thank God that you are not one of those silly Christians who believe a bit differently than you believe. Wasn't that the prayer of a Pharisee?

Now you just lied and embellished what I said....again proving you cannot read or just twist to make yourself look good.....here read it again and tell me what exactly I was thankful for.......

Thank God for salvation that is given as a free gift based upon faith through grace with no strings attached or hoops to jump through like the dog and pony shows put on by men and religion!!

 

[dcontroversal]

he is thinking of how to spin the answer into insulting you and saying he is holy, righteous , and pure.

Have a look at what DC is saying.

"We are saved by faith alone, at that point we are placed in the vine"

So is that true or not?
Are we saved by faith or not?

Then DC states that having been saved by faith and in the vine then we grow, mature and are transforming.
Effectively sanctification.
He is saying if you're in the vine you will grow as a result of your faith in Jesus.

But he is not saying if there is no evidence of growth that its of little concern.
I'm sure he would be concerned.
I'm also sure that if he was concerned with a believer he would pull them aside, talk to them and walk with them.

I'm sure he will correct me if I have got his thoughts wrong.

If we think about it.

Did any works save us before we came to Jesus?

Jesus said

John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So the work of God is to believe in Jesus, so Jesus after he rose again goes back to the Father, the Holy Spirit then comes to convict us of the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

So we see that this is the work of God.

We repent of that unbelief then we are placed in the vine.
Placing our faith in Jesus is not a work.
That's changing from disobedience to obedience.

When we place faith in Jesus it's the start of a new season, a new walk, being a new man.

You raise an interesting point when you say "If I choose to be obedient"

Bear with me on this one, it may not make sense but I hope you get my intent.

We know that the works we do are either good are bad.

A simple example to look at is adultery.

Paul said adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now a married person may never commit adultery. They may never physically sleep with another person and would never consider doing so. Great work.

The reverse.

Jesus said "Even if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery"

If you do so its a bad work.
Therefore we have to choose to be obedient and not go down that route.
When we do then we are doing good works as such.

As Jesus increases in us, we decrease.

Obedience to works are not just the physical but also the spiritual.

Amen Bill....right on....

 

[LightLoveHope]

The thing I was addressing was not unrepentant sin.

But doing good things.

LLH was talking about the good things that a believer and non believers do that God values.
So my point is what is the difference between the two?

After all the non beliver has no reason to repent because they have done nothing wrong.

God declares He listens to peoples suffering, and brings judgement or peace if there is repentance.

The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it
Genesis 19:13

Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me
Jonah 1:2

Sinners sin, but God still has compassion and love for them and blesses them.
In the end they will still be judged and thrown into the lake of fire.

It is odd to me that you do not see Gods heart. He talks to everyone one way
or another.

Paul puts it like this

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Romans 1:18-20

Everyone has reason to fear God and seek to get right with Him.
One evil deed declares a broken relationship with the creator.

And where there is no communion there is darkness, though love
bears witness there is always hope for those who seek it.

Now God values all things, he rejects sin but rejoices in the good.

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezek 18:24

But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Ezek 18:21-22

God works in the present moment and always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

The world has never been black and white, though only those written in the
Lambs book of life will be saved.

The good in man is from God. It is slowly dying as sin takes chunks of life
away from it. But if man reaches out to God, he can be saved and healed.
The tragedy is for all mans aspirations, one sin will destroy it all, and only
communion and healing can bring him back through Jesus.

 

[LoveGodForever]

The thing I was addressing was not unrepentant sin.

But doing good things.

LLH was talking about the good things that a believer and non believers do that God values.
So my point is what is the difference between the two?

After all the non beliver has no reason to repent because they have done nothing wrong.

Bill, it is still SIN. A non believer is still in their sins because they have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son the same as those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN. Both are non believers. For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and need a Savior from SIN. There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves accept to repent and BELIEVE God's WORD.

 

[Gabriel2020]

One good works is vanity without God. self righteousness,self seeking. Glory seekers. The other is good works in the kingdom of God to those that worship him. Worship him like he ask, and your good works will be rewarded, and not flushed down the toilet.

 

[joefizz]

You thank God that you are not one of those silly Christians who believe a bit differently than you believe. Wasn't that the prayer of a Pharisee?

It was and that pharisee "glorified his works""not God" and was glad for what "he supposedly was not" not at all concerned for the publican,and giving a "list" of works that he did hoping to please God,but the publican was "justified" for he was "humble" and "honest" and "not making excuses for himself",now which would a person rather be?

 

[dcontroversal]

It was and that pharisee "glorified his works""not God" and was glad for what "he supposedly was not" not at all concerned for the publican,and giving a "list" of works that he did hoping to please God,but the publican was "justified" for he was "humble" and "honest" and "not making excuses for himself",now which would a person rather be?

Simple truth hey Joe........anything that detracks from all glory aimed at Christ is false....end of story!

 

[dcontroversal]

I wonder if the workers for have done anything today that goes abkve and beyond the work of Jesus......nope!