Not By Works

[LightLoveHope]

LLH,

Who are the sinners who do good things that God values?

Every living person on the planet, outside His people.

 

[Magenta]

Do you think that my faith in Jesus is compromised somehow with doing good works out of love for him?

​

What an odd question. NOBODY here denies that works follow salvation. Your insistence on harping on this sour note casts your character in a poor light, for it seems a deliberate misrepresentation. ​

 

[benhur]

Even at times of solitude from the world, i am never alone because God is always with me.

What I don't understand is the constant striving of some for acceptance and their anger when their words aren't take to be gospel truth?

This is a thread about faith in God and how it alone saves.

Why the lack of understanding?

Agape love is that God reached out and saved us even while we were sinners.

Agape love is given into our hearts that we then can give to others.

Works do not save...it is because we are saved and have God's love that we are able to love and do good works for His glory.

Motive matters. Without the Holy spirit leading, our actions are futile and are just filthy rags.

You are right, motive matters. Without the HS leading, our actions are futile and are just filthy rags. But with the HS leading, our actions are bright and shining examples of who we are, the children of God. And our actions (good works) glorify God in all ways. In our belief and faith in Jesus and his grace, I go forward unto doing good works? To me the combination is important.

In your zealous belief and faith in Jesus, do you not go forward unto all good works to help Jesus build up his kingdom here on earth?

 

[benhur]

Thank God for salvation that is given as a free gift based upon faith through grace with no strings attached or hoops to jump through like the dog and pony shows put on by men and religion!!

You thank God that you are not one of those silly Christians who believe a bit differently than you believe. Wasn't that the prayer of a Pharisee?

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yahshua/Jesus says:

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[ElAmor]

Well, my battery is running out while waiting for him to answer. Someone else take a stab at answering.

Romans 12:9-21 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[7777pinacled]

What an odd question. NOBODY here denies that works follow salvation. Your insistence on harping on this sour note casts your character in a poor light, for it seems a deliberate misrepresentation. ​

not outright with admitted writing from the O.p.
no, of course not.
it is only subtly insinuated in order to cause strife.

There is no edification in this thread, zero.
A fruitless fig tree.

Has anyone even sat down and listened to the Ruach of Life and taken into account where they are going to store treasures?

If not, what kind of tent is the person who is left only with a foundation.

Well, i will encourage everyone to build, and if not they will be sharply rebuked by our Lord when he gets here.

[FONT=&quot]“The Kingdom of Heaven at that time will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible. 3 The foolish ones took lamps with them but no oil, 4 whereas the others took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 Now the bridegroom was late, so they all went to sleep. 6 It was the middle of the night when the cry rang out, ‘The bridegroom is here! Go out to meet him!’ 7 The girls all woke up and prepared their lamps for lighting. 8 The foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both you and us. Go to the oil dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 But as they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. Those who were ready went with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Later, the other bridesmaids came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they cried, ‘Let us in!’ 12 But he answered, ‘Indeed! I tell you, I don’t know you!’ 13 So stay alert, because you know neither the day nor the hour.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 “For it will be like a man about to leave home for awhile, who entrusted his possessions to his servants. 15 To one he gave five talents [equivalent to a hundred years’ wages]; to another, two talents; and to another, one talent — to each according to his ability. Then he left. 16 The one who had received five talents immediately went out, invested it and earned another five. 17 Similarly, the one given two earned another two. 18 But the one given one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 “After a long time, the master of those servants returned to settle accounts with them. 20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the other five and said, ‘Sir, you gave me five talents; here, I have made five more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Excellent! You are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’ 22 Also the one who had received two came forward and said, ‘Sir, you gave me two talents; here, I have made two more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Excellent! you are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 “Now the one who had received one talent came forward and said, ‘I knew you were a hard man. You harvest where you didn’t plant and gather where you didn’t sow seed. 25 I was afraid, so I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here! Take what belongs to you!’ 26 ‘You wicked, lazy servant!’ said his master, ‘So you knew, did you, that I harvest where I haven’t planted? and that I gather where I didn’t sow seed? 27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, so that when I returned, I would at least have gotten back interest with my capital! 28 Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For everyone who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has nothing, even what he does have will be taken away. 30 As for this worthless servant, throw him out in the dark, where people will wail and grind their teeth!’[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be assembled before him,[/FONT]

 

[LightLoveHope]

Peter, I am falling asleep waiting for your answer! Are you afraid to answer? Are you afraid I am trying to trap you or something?

Sorry Stunned. I am doing other things. I hope I have answered your points.

 

[benhur]

The more he talks and tries to justify his working for sinless pefectionist dogma....the more obvious it is that he rejects a plethora of truth that is contrary to his beliefs....just like PJ that peddle the exact same dogma.....Sometimes I fell like I am on Bombay watching the old dude on the corner in the red hat with the street organ and dancing monkey holding the can collecting chump change......it amazes me how Jesus is devalued by these people while they lift themselves and works up to a point of being above the work, ministry, powers, amd promises of Jesus....

Don't be amazed, we don't.

 

[VCO]

Obviously you didn't correctly read my post!! What do you call the blood of Christ covering us except grace? I didn't use the word but listed the method. A fuller statement is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus blood covering our sins. Thus we impute our sins to Him and He imputes His rightness to those of us who accept Him as savior.

Correction, the blood of lambs, or bulls Covered Sins, but JESUS BLOOD, Paid in Full for our sins.

 

[7777pinacled]

not outright with admitted writing from the O.p.
no, of course not.
it is only subtly insinuated in order to cause strife.

There is no edification in this thread, zero.
A fruitless fig tree.

Has anyone even sat down and listened to the Ruach of Life and taken into account where they are going to store treasures?

If not, what kind of tent is the person who is left only with a foundation.

Well, i will encourage everyone to build, and if not they will be sharply rebuked by our Lord when he gets here.

“The Kingdom of Heaven at that time will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible. 3 The foolish ones took lamps with them but no oil, 4 whereas the others took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 Now the bridegroom was late, so they all went to sleep. 6 It was the middle of the night when the cry rang out, ‘The bridegroom is here! Go out to meet him!’ 7 The girls all woke up and prepared their lamps for lighting. 8 The foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both you and us. Go to the oil dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 But as they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. Those who were ready went with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Later, the other bridesmaids came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they cried, ‘Let us in!’ 12 But he answered, ‘Indeed! I tell you, I don’t know you!’ 13 So stay alert, because you know neither the day nor the hour.
14 “For it will be like a man about to leave home for awhile, who entrusted his possessions to his servants. 15 To one he gave five talents [equivalent to a hundred years’ wages]; to another, two talents; and to another, one talent — to each according to his ability. Then he left. 16 The one who had received five talents immediately went out, invested it and earned another five. 17 Similarly, the one given two earned another two. 18 But the one given one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time, the master of those servants returned to settle accounts with them. 20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the other five and said, ‘Sir, you gave me five talents; here, I have made five more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Excellent! You are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’ 22 Also the one who had received two came forward and said, ‘Sir, you gave me two talents; here, I have made two more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Excellent! you are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’
24 “Now the one who had received one talent came forward and said, ‘I knew you were a hard man. You harvest where you didn’t plant and gather where you didn’t sow seed. 25 I was afraid, so I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here! Take what belongs to you!’ 26 ‘You wicked, lazy servant!’ said his master, ‘So you knew, did you, that I harvest where I haven’t planted? and that I gather where I didn’t sow seed? 27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, so that when I returned, I would at least have gotten back interest with my capital! 28 Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For everyone who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has nothing, even what he does have will be taken away. 30 As for this worthless servant, throw him out in the dark, where people will wail and grind their teeth!’
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be assembled before him,

I believe the Lord is being quite specific here.
ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
(sensible, wise women who love their husband)

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To one he gave five talents ; to another, two talents; and to another, one talent — to each according to his ability. Then he left. 16 The one who had received five talents immediately went out, invested it and earned another five. 17 Similarly, the one given two earned another two. 18 But the one given one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

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Above are some visual tools to help.
]the first person who has learned about the Congregation of God, their faith has made them whole.


]the second? ...everyone is welcome to hear.


]the third?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, 'is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5:22

Anger is for war, aggression, violence.
Annoyance is about irritation and identifying a problem.

The phrase "his brother", restricts murder with anger to those in ones family of believers, not an
enemy, or unbeliever.

We have no reason to be angry with a fellow believer, but what about a blasphemer,
or apostate?

On the subject of anger, the verse you quote maybe wrong.
The problem with the phrase "without cause" is not in all the copies of the gospel,
and seems a cop out. One could dream up lots of causes in ones own mind.

Now murder is a single act, angry is an emotional feeling that goes on.
Paul puts it like this

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
and do not give the devil a foothold.
Ephesians 4:26-27

Paul seems to be saying anger will happen, but resolve it, or it becomes equivalent
to murder.

Now this thread is on salvation and not anger, being saved by faith and not works or
being a good person.

This a pretty fair mish mash here peter.
And now you have answered my question with this question: and who is my brother?
Because you seem to be saying to murder an unbeliever with anger is okay but it is not okay to murder a believer with anger.

So love your enemies has become love those who do good to you.

You are going further and further off track.

The question was this: If you are rude to me and I become angry, is that anger with cause or anger without cause?

I will use myself as an example. Someone was very rude in here to me a while back. This would appear to be a cause for me to have anger in my heart at them, which is to murder them, to fume about how badly they treated me and how sharp and nasty they were to me with their words and to want to exact payment from them for their sin against me.

But I have been rude and sharp with others before. So where has my cause gone? If I am guilty of the same thing, where is my cause? Can I throw a stone of anger at them and murder them for their sin, when I have been guilty of the same sin?

My sin was forgiven. Can I then go out and beat someone else and demand payment? That is holding them to a standard I have not been held to. It is to have my debt forgiven and then go out and demand payment from them. And I'm told if I do this, I will be thrown back into prison until I pay my debt.

And if I will be judged in the same manner that I judge, then because I murder them, how will I be judged for doing the same exact thing?

 

[7777pinacled]

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, 'is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5:22

Anger is for war, aggression, violence.
Annoyance is about irritation and identifying a problem.

The phrase "his brother", restricts murder with anger to those in ones family of believers, not an
enemy, or unbeliever.

We have no reason to be angry with a fellow believer, but what about a blasphemer,
or apostate?

On the subject of anger, the verse you quote maybe wrong.
The problem with the phrase "without cause" is not in all the copies of the gospel,
and seems a cop out. One could dream up lots of causes in ones own mind.

Now murder is a single act, angry is an emotional feeling that goes on.
Paul puts it like this

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
and do not give the devil a foothold.
Ephesians 4:26-27

Paul seems to be saying anger will happen, but resolve it, or it becomes equivalent
to murder.

Now this thread is on salvation and not anger, being saved by faith and not works or
being a good person.

Amen, before you leave your gift before the Altar

 

[7777pinacled]

I believe the Lord is being quite specific here.
ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
(sensible, wise women who love their husband)

{o}{}
{o}{}
{o}{}
{o}{}
{o}{}

To one he gave five talents ; to another, two talents; and to another, one talent — to each according to his ability. Then he left. 16 The one who had received five talents immediately went out, invested it and earned another five. 17 Similarly, the one given two earned another two. 18 But the one given one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

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{t}{}

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{t}{}
{t}{}

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Above are some visual tools to help.
]the first person who has learned about the Congregation of God, their faith has made them whole.


]the second? ...everyone is welcome to hear.


]the third?

Anyone remember what the Lord instructed moses to build?
i believe it was ten curtains

 

[benhur]

To worry is not to trust, is this true? I believe it is. If you are placing your trust into your own keeping, then you will have reason to worry. There's not one thing we can add to the work of salvation that Jesus finished for mankind. Just believe He is truth and no lie.

What we do? Walk in this truth as who and what we are, what He has made us. A new creation man, one body living and moving together as one in Him on earth. Looking to Him, the head, and not around us on one another, nor downcast, earthly minded. Heavenly minded for our goals are birthed from above, not beneath.

The commands are daily given, for its always today in eternity. Out of our being,our belly, flowing.rivers, living waters.

Called resting in Him, that we might rise in His work of power.

I did mention that I believe and have faith and trust Jesus, and I am saved. If I decide to keep the commandments of Jesus it is of little concern because I am saved. Is that how it works? If not, tell me where I am wrong?

 

[7777pinacled]

I did mention that I believe and have faith and trust Jesus, and I am saved. If I decide to keep the commandments of Jesus it is of little concern because I am saved. Is that how it works? If not, tell me where I am wrong?

what is guarding your heart?

 

[VCO]

This is a new idea. If I love someone, and then respond in love this is of no value.
But if Gods love motivates me to love, then that has value.

I did not know there were two totally different types of love.

This has to be the biggest load of junk ever. God is love, and all love is a reflection
of the love He put within creation, which is part of the whole creative act.

The problem with the world, is it does not recognize all love has its source in God
and His grace to everything.

It is why without communion with God, love dies within us, and gets overwhelmed
by bitterness, hatred, envy, jealousy, greed, selfishness.

Jesus describes this reality as we as members of the Kingdom of God are plugged
into the vine, as a branch with His love flowing through us. We think it is our love,
but that is because we are part of the vine. Break off from the vine, and our love
dies along with us.

For some strange reason, love in the world has to be turned evil, and only God,
has love, in some distant way, and we are impure and polluted incapable of showing
His love to anyone properly. Except as purified, cleansed redeemed children of God,
through the cross we truly know what Gods love is, and it is very much alive in everything
we do, because we are plugged into the creator. All our love has its source in Him, there
is no such thing as love from self, this is just a lie of the enemy, to condemn people, rather
than declare the great work He has done in us. Amen.

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
You are my friends if you do what I command.
John 15:13-14

In the Greek, their are FOUR KINDS OF LOVE.

Ancient Greek has four distinct words for love: agápe, éros, philía, and storgē. However, as with other languages, it has been difficult to separate the meanings of these words when used outside their respective contexts. Nonetheless, the senses in which these words were generally used are as follows:

• Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[SUP][1][/SUP]) means "love: esp. charity; the love of God for man and of man for God."[SUP][2][/SUP] Agape is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one's children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast.[SUP][3][/SUP] Agape is used by Christians to express the unconditional love of God for his children.[SUP][4][/SUP] This type of love was further explained by Thomas Aquinas as "to will the good of another."[SUP][5][/SUP]
• Éros (ἔρως érōs) means "love, mostly of the sexual passion."[SUP][6][/SUP] The Modern Greek word "erotas" means "intimate love." Plato refined his own definition: Although eros is initially felt for a person, with contemplation it becomes an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself. Plato does not talk of physical attraction as a necessary part of love, hence the use of the word platonic to mean, "without physical attraction." In the Symposium, the most famous ancient work on the subject, Plato has Socrates argue that eros helps the soul recall knowledge of beauty, and contributes to an understanding of spiritual truth, the ideal "Form" of youthful beauty that leads us humans to feel erotic desire – thus suggesting that even that sensually based love aspires to the non-corporeal, spiritual plane of existence; that is, finding its truth, just like finding any truth, leads to transcendence.[SUP][7][/SUP] Lovers and philosophers are all inspired to seek truth through the means of eros.
• Philia (φιλία philía) means "affectionate regard, friendship," usually "between equals."[SUP][8][/SUP] It is a dispassionate virtuous love, a concept developed by Aristotle.[SUP][9][/SUP] In his best-known work on ethics, Nicomachean Ethics, philia is expressed variously as loyalty to friends (specifically, "brotherly love"), family, and community, and requires virtue, equality, and familiarity. Furthermore, in the same text philosdenotes a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers.
• Storge (στοργή storgē) means "love, affection" and "especially of parents and children"[SUP][10][/SUP] It is the common or natural empathy, like that felt by parents for offspring.[SUP][11][/SUP] Rarely used in ancient works, and then almost exclusively as a descriptor of relationships within the family. It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in "loving" the tyrant. This is also used when referencing the love for one's country or a favorite sports team. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

English is a POOR Language to translate the Bible into, but it is all I understand. And YES the example you used, is the GREATEST FORM OF LOVE; which means their are also lesser forms of love. I believe that GREATEST FORM OF LOVE, cannot be accomplished WITHOUT GOD's LOVE being present IN YOU.

 

[BillG]

One thing I think many flat deny, reject or overlook is the simple truth that WE produce NOTHING.....it is tue ROOT that produces through the VINE.....JESUS is the ROOT and he is the ONE PRODUCING THROUGH US as a living sacrifice and exactly why ALL glory goes to him and why works do not save, keep saved or top off salvation.....we are placed into the Vine by faith and being born from above/saved/redeemed and then through growth, maturity and transformation he BEGINS TO PRODUCE THROUGH US.......!

According to your belief system, I don't have to worry a bit. I believe and I have faith, and I trust Jesus, therefore I am saved. (in past tense). If I decide to obey the commandments of Jesus or not, it is of little concern, since I have been saved. That's how it works, right?

And if that is not right, tell me where I am wrong?

Have a look at what DC is saying.

"We are saved by faith alone, at that point we are placed in the vine"

So is that true or not?
Are we saved by faith or not?

Then DC states that having been saved by faith and in the vine then we grow, mature and are transforming.
Effectively sanctification.
He is saying if you're in the vine you will grow as a result of your faith in Jesus.

But he is not saying if there is no evidence of growth that its of little concern.
I'm sure he would be concerned.
I'm also sure that if he was concerned with a believer he would pull them aside, talk to them and walk with them.

I'm sure he will correct me if I have got his thoughts wrong.

If we think about it.

Did any works save us before we came to Jesus?

Jesus said

John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So the work of God is to believe in Jesus, so Jesus after he rose again goes back to the Father, the Holy Spirit then comes to convict us of the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

So we see that this is the work of God.

We repent of that unbelief then we are placed in the vine.
Placing our faith in Jesus is not a work.
That's changing from disobedience to obedience.

When we place faith in Jesus it's the start of a new season, a new walk, being a new man.

You raise an interesting point when you say "If I choose to be obedient"

Bear with me on this one, it may not make sense but I hope you get my intent.

We know that the works we do are either good are bad.

A simple example to look at is adultery.

Paul said adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now a married person may never commit adultery. They may never physically sleep with another person and would never consider doing so. Great work.

The reverse.

Jesus said "Even if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery"

If you do so its a bad work.
Therefore we have to choose to be obedient and not go down that route.
When we do then we are doing good works as such.

As Jesus increases in us, we decrease.

Obedience to works are not just the physical but also the spiritual.

 

[Studyman]

Anyone remember what the Lord instructed moses to build?
i believe it was ten curtains

I'm afraid modern man has reduced it to 9.

 

[benhur]

What an odd question. NOBODY here denies that works follow salvation. Your insistence on harping on this sour note casts your character in a poor light, for it seems a deliberate misrepresentation. ​

You are the one that put my character in a bad light in your post #57584. Here is what you said:
You should be more concerned with the lovers of self who use Jesus to justify their hypocrisy.

So I responded by saying is my faith and trust in Jesus compromised by my doing good works? Because you obviously think that because I talk about good works I am somehow a lover of myself and even use Jesus to justify my hypocrisy. You want to talk about an odd statement from one bible-reading Christian to another bible-reading Christian.

What that statement says to me, loud and clear is: if I do not believe the way you believe 100%, then I am a lover of myself and I use Jesus to justify my hypocrisy.

And BTW, what hypocrisy do I justify?