Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

ah

i see

thank you

Your welcome bro.....

 

[Ralph-]

AMEN.....where sin abounds, grace over abounds.......<---literally ahead of our sin and deals with our sin as we sin.....grace is excellent....now watch the decept-i-cons come out and say I just said we can live like we want to because of grace....

The person who says they are saved and who lives any way they want is not born again.

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."-1 John 3:10

Grace does not abound to the person who lives any way they want. They show that they do not have the grace of God in salvation. John said so.

The presence of abundant grace is seen in a turning away from sin, not in a living in sin. Paul said do not be deceived. People who live in sin will not inherit the kingdom.

 

[Endoscopy]

The person who says they are saved and who lives any way they want is not born again.

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."-1 John 3:10

Grace does not abound to the person who lives any way they want. They show that they do not have the grace of God in salvation. John said so.

The presence of abundant grace is seen in a turning away from sin, not in a living in sin. Paul said do not be deceived. People who live in sin will not inherit the kingdom.

You are correct. This quote of Paul sums up our problem.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

The person who says they are saved and who lives any way they want is not born again.

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."-1 John 3:10

Grace does not abound to the person who lives any way they want. They show that they do not have the grace of God in salvation. John said so.

The presence of abundant grace is seen in a turning away from sin, not in a living in sin. Paul said do not be deceived. People who live in sin will not inherit the kingdom.

Yet again you prove you are as dense as lead while embellishing what I said into something I did not say.....get an extinguisher because your pants are on fire........

 

[Ralph-]

Yet again you prove you are as dense as lead while embellishing what I said into something I did not say.....

You're too defensive. I didn't change anything you said. You made some statements about grace out bounding sin and I made some of my own. I'm allowed to post here too.

You really do need to put me on ignore and not read my posts if you can only see them as me changing what you say into something you did not.

 

[dcontroversal]

You're too defensive. I didn't change anything you said. You made some statements about grace out bounding sin and I made some of my own. I'm allowed to post here too.

You have consistently accused us of saying we can live any way we want to because we believe in eternal salvation by grace through faith....and instead of agreeing with my post which was biblical you again resort to firing a line about those who live any way they want to...and your last statement-->The presence of abundant grace is seen in a turning away from sin
does not fit the context of what is actually said about grace OUT BOUNDING the sin of a believer when they sin.....and NO one indicated a lifestyle of sin....PAUL was clear....should we keep on sinning because GRACE ABOUNDS....NO.....the context is clear...

 

[Ralph-]

BillG,

I know about fear. As a Christian, I used to fear God. Then I read 1 John 4:17 and learned how to overcome that fear. Now I do not fear God because I learned that the Christian life and being ready for Christ's return is all about loving like God loves.

The person who is living that life is ready to meet Jesus when he returns. He has no cause for concern or worry about that day. But people are being taught that they do not have to fear his return because you can not lose your salvation no matter what. That is a false reason to not fear and exactly negates what John says in the passage I cited.

It causes people to not examine themselves to see if they are really saved or not. (Just look at how much resistance that Biblical teaching has gotten in this thread.) They just assume they are saved, and that since they are saved, they can never lose it. No reason to examine anything. It's a done deal, so they think. That is a very dangerous doctrine.

You can't lose your salvation until you grow up to that level of maturity of knowing Christ. That is represented in the fourth kind of soil in the parable of the sower. It is the immature who have no deep root in Christ, they are the ones who can fall away into unbelief. They are represented in the second kind of soil.

 

[Ralph-]

You have consistently accused us of saying we can live any way we want to because we believe in eternal salvation by grace through faith....and instead of agreeing with my post which was biblical you again resort to firing a line about those who live any way they want to...and your last statement-->The presence of abundant grace is seen in a turning away from sin
does not fit the context of what is actually said about grace OUT BOUNDING the sin of a believer when they sin.....and NO one indicated a lifestyle of sin....PAUL was clear....should we keep on sinning because GRACE ABOUNDS....NO.....the context is clear...

I let you say what you wanted to say about grace abounding over sin, and I said what I wanted to say about grace abounding over sin. You got a problem with that? Can I not post her too?

Look at what the increase of sin is that grace abounds all the more to...

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"-Romans 5:20

The REVELATION of your sin, not the increasing AMOUNT of your sin. Grace is there ready to abound all the more far above what the law reveals you to be guilty of. Grace is not there ready to abound all the more in response to your increased sinning. And I don't care if that's not what you were saying or not. I'm saying what I want to say about it.

 

[dcontroversal]

I let you say what you wanted to say about grace abounding over sin, and I said what I wanted to say about grace abounding over sin. You got a problem with that? Can I not post her too?

Look at what the increase of sin is that grace abounds all the more to...

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"-Romans 5:20

The REVELATION of your sin, not the increasing AMOUNT of your sin. Grace is there ready to abound all the more far above what the law reveals you to be guilty of. Grace is not there ready to abound all the more in response to your increased sinning. And I don't care if that's not what you were saying or not. I'm saying what I want to say about it.

What does a verb show? <---a STATE OF ACTION...YES or NO?

[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nomos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νόμος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] law[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]moreover[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3922 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pareisēlthen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]παρεισῆλθεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]entered,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pleonasē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πλεονάσῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]might abound[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]to[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3900 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]paraptōma[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]παράπτωμα·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]transgression;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3757 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὗ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]where[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]epleonasen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐπλεόνασεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]abounded[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]- [/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]266 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hamartia[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἁμαρτία,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]sin,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5248 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hypereperisseusen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]overabounded[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]- [/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5485 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]charis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]χάρις,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]grace,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[dcontroversal]

WHEN WE SIN (action) <--VERB

GRACE OUT BOUNDS (action)<---VERB

SHALL we KEEP ON SINNING<--present active indicative form of the verb BECAUSE GRACE OVER or OUT BOUNDS OUR SIN....IT IS A VERB and shows state of action.....and written UNTO BELIEVERS who are SAVED already

 

[Ralph-]

WHEN WE SIN (action) <--VERB

GRACE OUT BOUNDS (action)<---VERB

SHALL we KEEP ON SINNING<--present active indicative form of the verb BECAUSE GRACE OVER or OUT BOUNDS OUR SIN....IT IS A VERB and shows state of action.....and written UNTO BELIEVERS who are SAVED already

Every verb in Romans 5:20 is in the aorist tense, not the present tense. The aorist tense is most closely translated as the past tense in English.

What Paul is saying is grace has come, and it out did the increased revelation of sin guilt caused by the law. Grace is bigger than any increase of condemnation caused by the knowledge of sin through the law.

We're gentiles. The fundamental truth of the gospel doesn't mean as much to us because we have not grown up living the law of Moses. But for Jews who have it's an amazing truth to know that through Christ there is no violation of the law that grace can not out do. For if you'll remember, not everything could be forgiven in the law. Only through the new way of grace is the sin aroused by the law and made known to us completely consumed and forgiven and forgotten. That is what it means for grace to abound all the more over sin. Sin is all the more because of the law, which makes sin all the more known to us, but grace is all the more bigger than the increase of sin the law exposes.

 

[dcontroversal]

Every verb in Romans 5:20 is in the aorist tense, not the present tense. The aorist tense is most closely translated as the past tense in English.

What Paul is saying is grace has come, and it out did the increased revelation of sin caused by the law. Grace is bigger than any increase of condemnation caused by the knowledge of sin through the law.

We're gentiles. The fundamental truth of the gospel doesn't mean as much to us because we have not grown up living the law of Moses. But for Jews who have it's an amazing truth to know that through Christ there is no violation of the law that grace can not out do. For if you'll remember, not everything could be forgiven in the law. Only through the new way of grace is the sin aroused by the law and made known to us completely consumed and forgiven and forgotten.

Maybe you do not know Greek as well as you think you do...."ing" shows state of action
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5101 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Ti[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Τί[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]What[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]IPro-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3767 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]oun[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὖν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]then[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2046 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eroumen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐροῦμεν;[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]will we say?[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-FIA-1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1961 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]epimenōmen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐπιμένωμεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Shall we continue[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PSA-1P <-----Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present
Mood: Subjunctive
Voice: Active

Person: 1st Person
Number: Plural[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῇ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]- [/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]266 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hamartia[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἁμαρτίᾳ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in sin,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]- [/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5485 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]charis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]χάρις[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]grace[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pleonasē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πλεονάσῃ;[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]might abound?[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Ralph-]

Maybe you do not know Greek as well as you think you do...."ing" shows state of action
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5101 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Ti[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Τί[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]What[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]IPro-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3767 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]oun[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὖν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]then[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2046 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eroumen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐροῦμεν;[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]will we say?[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-FIA-1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1961 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]epimenōmen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐπιμένωμεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Shall we continue[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PSA-1P <-----Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present
Mood: Subjunctive
Voice: Active

Person: 1st Person
Number: Plural[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῇ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]266 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hamartia[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἁμαρτίᾳ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in sin,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5485 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]charis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]χάρις[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]grace[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pleonasē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πλεονάσῃ;[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]might abound?[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm just going by what Strong's says: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/5/1/t_conc_1051020

Click on the 'Parse' button next to each verb. They are all aorist tense verbs, not present tense. Paul is speaking of action performed in the past. The giving of the law (past tense) and the increase of sin as a result, and the appearing of grace (past tense) and the covering of that increase of sin. Grace outbounded the increase of sin caused by the increased knowledge of sin through the law.

 

[dcontroversal]

What does a verb show? <---a STATE OF ACTION...YES or NO?

Note the following.....all verbs are in the aorist subjunctive active voice......and what does this mean...
The difference between these tenses is generally not one of time, but of aspect. Thus when a subjunctive verb is used prospectively to refer to a future event or situation , the aorist is used to refer to an event, the present to a situation (or habitual series of events):

HENCE a FUTURE EVENT OR SERIES OF HABITUAL EVENTS.........

Ralph...you are wrong and verb tense proves you wrong.....accept the truth


[TABLE="class: cms_table_maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]nomos[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]νόμος[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"][the] law[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]moreover[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3922 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]pareisēlthen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]παρεισῆλθεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]entered,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]pleonasē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]πλεονάσῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]might abound[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-ASA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]to[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]τὸ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3900 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]paraptōma[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]παράπτωμα·[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]transgression;[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3757 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hou[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]οὗ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]where[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]however[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]epleonasen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἐπλεόνασεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]abounded[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]266 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hamartia[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἁμαρτία,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]sin,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]5248 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hypereperisseusen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]overabounded[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIA-3S--->Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Aorist
Mood: Subjunctive
Voice: Active

Person: 3rd Person
Number: Singular[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]5485 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]charis[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]χάρις,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]grace,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm just going by what Strong's says: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/5/1/t_conc_1051020

Click on the 'Parse' button next to each verb. They are all aorist tense verbs, not present tense. Paul is speaking of action performed in the past. The giving of the law (past tense) and the increase of sin as a result, and the appearing of grace (past tense) and the covering of that increase of sin. Grace outbounded the increase of sin caused by the increased knowledge of sin through the law.

WRONG.....they are aorist subjunctive active verbs <-----The difference between these tenses is generally not one of time, but of aspect. Thus when a subjunctive verb is used prospectively to refer to a future event or situation (e.g. "I am afraid it may happen"), the aorist is used to refer to an event, the present to a situation (or habitual series of events):

A FUTURE EVENT or SERIES OF HABITUAL FUTURE EVENTS.......wake up to the truth man.....serious

 

[Locutus]

Ralph still can't keep it in..

 

[Budman]

WRONG.....they are aorist subjunctive active verbs <-----The difference between these tenses is generally not one of time, but of aspect. Thus when a subjunctive verb is used prospectively to refer to a future event or situation (e.g. "I am afraid it may happen"), the aorist is used to refer to an event, the present to a situation (or habitual series of events):

A FUTURE EVENT or SERIES OF HABITUAL FUTURE EVENTS.......wake up to the truth man.....serious

Dang DC, I almost feel sorry for Ralph. You are tearing him to shreds!

 

[Ralph-]

What does a verb show? <---a STATE OF ACTION...YES or NO?

Note the following.....all verbs are in the aorist subjunctive active voice......and what does this mean...
The difference between these tenses is generally not one of time, but of aspect. Thus when a subjunctive verb is used prospectively to refer to a future event or situation , the aorist is used to refer to an event, the present to a situation (or habitual series of events):

HENCE a FUTURE EVENT OR SERIES OF HABITUAL EVENTS.........

Ralph...you are wrong and verb tense proves you wrong.....accept the truth


[TABLE="class: cms_table_maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]nomos[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]νόμος[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"][the] law[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]moreover[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3922 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]pareisēlthen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]παρεισῆλθεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]entered,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]pleonasē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]πλεονάσῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]might abound[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-ASA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]to[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]τὸ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3900 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]paraptōma[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]παράπτωμα·[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]transgression;[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3757 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hou[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]οὗ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]where[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]however[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]4121 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]epleonasen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἐπλεόνασεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]abounded[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]266 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hamartia[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἁμαρτία,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]sin,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]5248 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hypereperisseusen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]overabounded[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIA-3S--->Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Aorist
Mood: Subjunctive
Voice: Active

Person: 3rd Person
Number: Singular[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]5485 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]charis[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]χάρις,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]grace,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I thought you had reposted the Romans 5:20 table. I didn't look at it thinking it was a repost. So that is where the confusion came in on my part.


All the verbs in Romans 5:20 are aorist tense (completed actions with ongoing results, not states of ongoing action). In Romans 6:1 the verb 'continue' is in the future tense. The verb 'abound' is in the aorist (past) tense.

Are we to continue (potentially, in the future) in the sin revealed and magnified by the law because grace has abounded (past tense) through Christ? You might not be saying it, but many do say, yes. And they say 'once saved always saved' is why. They say there is NOTHING that can cause you to lose your salvation, not even living in sin.

They say sin CAN increase because grace abounds all the more in response (as if Paul was saying the increase of sin was you sinning more and more). Not true. Works do matter. Grace does not make it so works don't matter as many think. Works show you have the abounding grace of God over the increase of sin caused by the law.

 

[Ralph-]

aorist tense (completed actions with ongoing results...).

Correction. Results can be ongoing or not.

 

[Ralph-]

Are we to continue (potentially, in the future) in the sin revealed and magnified by the law because grace has abounded (past tense) through Christ? You might not be saying it, but many do say, yes. And they say 'once saved always saved' is why. They say there is NOTHING that can cause you to lose your salvation, not even living in sin.

They say sin CAN increase because grace abounds all the more in response (as if Paul was saying the increase of sin was you sinning more and more).

I wasn't going to say his name, but I've changed my mind. Budman believes this.