We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16: 10:16).
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John 1:9, “Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess YHWH. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John 1:9, “Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess YHWH. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son.” [/FONT]
We must be careful not to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
s amen brother, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believed is condemned already, because he has not believed (he has disobeyed the gospel)
Amen brother! In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Refusing to believe the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to obey the gospel.
We must be careful to not add non sense to what He says.
Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”
Yahshua/Jesus is the ONE WE MUST HEAR AND OBEY. PERIOD.
Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”
John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
*Mosheh wrote:
Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”
"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey
John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”
Acts 3:22-23, “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I laugh at these people who love to yell at disobedience. They do not see their own disobedience.
We have to focus on the cross, not how good we are. WE DO NOT STACK UP TO CHRIST. No matter how hard we try, or well we think we are. We will always fall short.
Thankyou for the reminder.
I've learned over the yrs that conversing written only script as we do in a forum venue sometimes gives an unpalatable difference. That could most likely be calmly discussed in person.
There was a time when I used to text an elder everyday with questions. And he was always very kind in his constructive criticism.
His given knowledge of scripture helped to buffer many of the misunderstanding i held to. The Lord was kind in leading me to converse with this elder.
To which I will always be grateful for.
Not so much in learning from scripture, but how to help a youth sharpen iron.
Clarity is a word that the Lord kept me focused on early in my walk.
And till this day I have held to it with loving intentions.
Perhaps one day I'll be the elder to help a youth in the same circumstance I was once offered.
Blessings Always
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
None of us are perfect but every time we slip we should look to Him, this does not mean we lower the standard but we should accept His words as the standard.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
None of us are perfect but every time we slip we should look to Him, this does not mean we lower the standard but we should accept His words as the standard.
[/FONT]
As in New covenant.
New Testament
I actually believe that true understanding or misunderstanding this phrase is the difference between understanding grace and works.
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J
joefizz
Guest
Genuine believers do not add nonsense to what Jesus says and we also must be careful not to pervert the gospel by teaching that salvation is by “grace plus law, faith plus works.”
As we read in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as certain people would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.
Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him.
The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.
*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.
DipoleDave has spoken - this should end the argument once and for all.
If 3/4 of what he said was not wrong.......
Wrong (as usual). To believe in Jesus cleanses us, and keeps us spotless. His righteousness, His Holiness, His sinlessness, HIS WORKS. Deeds don't have a thing to do with it. Yet again, you are adding to the gospel (big surprise).
James, once again, is talking about being justified before men - not before God. And since our deeds don't justify us before God, we don't have to prove anything regarding our salvation. That issue was settled by Jesus.
Hogwash. Tell me, specifically, what good deeds can a Christian do that an unbeliever can't? Bearing in mind even those who cast out demons and other miracles in Matthew 7:22.
I already did and quoted her words to you. And since she was a devout Roman Catholic, unless she had a death bed conversion, she certainly wasn't saved.
Um, no. She didn't believe Jesus was the only way of salvation. Your reading comprehension is terrible.
*sigh*
Paul himself said in Romans 4:5: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. " And once one is declared righteous, he cannot lose it - because it is Christ's righteousness that is imputed. If we were to lose our righteousness by failing to do good works, Jesus would have to lose His righteousness.
And that's not gonna happen.
1 Corinthians 3 is plain in regard to one not having any works to show but is saved nevertheless.
Once.....again....
Correcting you is not abusing you. And your threats that we'll get sick (including being stricken with cancer) for coming against your false doctrine, is something a cult leader would teach.
*sigh*
And we are, yet again, back to this false accusation. Grace is not a license to sin. Yet myself, and you, and everyone else walking this earth, sins, every.....single....day. Christians struggle with the "old man" (nature), yet all of our sins have been forgiven. Past, present, and future. It's done. It's over. The sin issue is settled. If that isn't true, what Jesus did on the cross was not "finished" as He said, and He would have to come back and die for whatever sins He missed the first time. Because, yet again, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
Even atheists can forgive and not hate.
You can't be as perfect as you need to be because the verse says to be a perfect as GOD IS.
And it doesn't say "aim" to be, or just in that "next temptation". Once again, (big surprise) you are adding to the word of God.
Wrong. Jesus is teaching about the seriousness of sin, and the horror of hell. That if you could somehow save yourself by plucking out and eye, or cutting off a hand, it would be better to do that than to end up in hell.
But you can't. Which was His point. Unlike you, who teach we must maintain a certain level of holiness by our works to be saved.
You mean that thing you say you believe in, but don't?
That's why you have such aberrant doctrine.
You must have the perfection of Jesus imputed to you to be acceptable to God. It's a gift that cannot be earned, or kept by human effort in any way. Again, if you want to strive to be perfect, you have to be as perfect as God to be saved.
Your human effort, or a combination of your efforts and grace, will not do it.
That's a deflection. Jesus put the nail in the coffin by commanding one to sell all he has and give it to the poor. Have you - will you?
Jesus, again, was teaching if you want to get to heaven by what you do, you'd better go all the way. And none of us can.
Your distortions of the scripture are already legendary here at CC.
If you are not already perfect now, you will die in your sins. Period. God isn't going to accept 1/4, or 1/2, or even 3/4 perfection. It's complete perfection or nothing.
Wow. You just called Jesus a liar.
Let me quote the whole thing: "Then they asked Him; "what must we do to do the works that God requires?" Jesus answered, " The work of God is this; to believe in the One He has sent." (John 6:28-29)
Period. That's it. That's all. End of requirements.
R
Ralph-
Guest
All who BELIEVE are cleansed and spotless. That's why I resist your doctrine. In your doctrine, you don't have to keep believing to be saved when Jesus comes back. Even the original once saved always saved doctrine says if you stop believing and living for Jesus it shows you were never saved to begin with and you will be lost.
Works do matter in that the person who believes and is saved has works as a result of receiving the Holy Spirit. No works means you're not born again. That's what John said. Your doctrine directly contradicts him. Your doctrine says it doesn't matter, you are born again even if you don't do right and love your neighbor.
If you don't have works it shows you are not born again. Jesus already knows who is born again and who is not. But he still chooses to condemn or acquit on the basis of what you have done in this life-Matthew 25:31-46. I guess he does that so he's not open to the accusation of judging unfairly.
Unbelievers don't love their enemies as themselves.
What part of 'apart from me you can do nothing' do you not understand? Are you calling Jesus a liar?
The gifts were given to men in positions of authority in the old covenant on the basis of calling alone. Only believers have those gifts in the New. The context of Matthew 7 is the people of Jesus' day before his resurrection and the institution of the New Covenant. For a better understanding of who, specifically, Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 read Luke 13:25-28.
And I cited Romans 2:14-16. Do you not believe what Paul wrote? Mother Teresa believed what Paul wrote. You do not?
Everyone who believes is saved. Even Roman Catholics. Before you judge the entire denomination as lost, get to know some of them and what they believe and why. They are not all unsaved, no more than all Protestants are unsaved.
Apparently, you didn't read Romans 2:14-16.
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Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life(1)
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.(2)
Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.(3)
Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.(4)
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.(5)
(1)Revelation 21:27(2)1 Thessalonians 4:7(3)Luke 11:39-41(4)James 4:8(5)Ephesians 5:5
What I am reading, it is as if the cleaned out bowl once cleaned can be defiled as it was before
and yet it does not matter, because it once was clean, so hey, nothing else matters.
But then this makes a farce of this
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45
This would imply evil is as good as good, in this crazy weird world.
Obviously Christ to them does not have the power to lead His people in victory,
love, joy and healing. Not a victorious King who has done this
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
Revelation 5:9
This other version is a bunch of defiled layabouts who will defile eternity with their sin.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.(2)
Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.(3)
Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.(4)
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.(5)
(1)Revelation 21:27(2)1 Thessalonians 4:7(3)Luke 11:39-41(4)James 4:8(5)Ephesians 5:5
What I am reading, it is as if the cleaned out bowl once cleaned can be defiled as it was before
and yet it does not matter, because it once was clean, so hey, nothing else matters.
But then this makes a farce of this
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45
This would imply evil is as good as good, in this crazy weird world.
Obviously Christ to them does not have the power to lead His people in victory,
love, joy and healing. Not a victorious King who has done this
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
Revelation 5:9
This other version is a bunch of defiled layabouts who will defile eternity with their sin.
