Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Incensed? God as my witness I don't have an ounce of anger or rage toward anyone here.

I just want you to explain how thinking one must keep Sabbath, etc. is being legalistic, but thinking one must not murder, not steal, not commit adultery, etc. isn't.

The divine nature that we are born into will not murder, or commit adultery, unless one is tempted and desires yet the temptation. All the work of the enemy who watches for weakness. The problem being idolatry. Immaturity. Brings chastening until repentance. That's the working of Spirit, Holy Spirit within. We aren't orphans, nor are we servants. We are Gods children.

Under the law, we should stone adulterers. You want to start?

 

[stonesoffire]

Should I think you 'a legalistic' because you think we should keep the command to not steal or commit adultery?

I don't know. Should you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the pharisees thought they were righteous bt their own law, they did not even say they were followingthe Law of YHWH but they themselves said "tradition of the elders":

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

Another one who calls paul a liar.

Phil 3: 4 - [FONT=&quot]though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one Denys they added laws. But the laws they had it MADE IT HARDER TO BREAK THE LAW OF MOSES. If people would stop being so consumned with self and your own work, and look to reality you would see this, But no. Your to proud. And to puffed up just like the pharisees were. Amazing that you judge them when you are just like them![/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because he was talking about being circumcised IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW.


The prohibition against the law is keeping the law IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED, not against keeping the law.
We don't know this because we have been taught that Paul said keeping the law is what you must not do. Which is quite ridiculous when you see that he himself kept the law.


Acts 16:1-3, “1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”



Galatians 5:2, Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.”


Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."


Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."



Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Lol. NO ONE COULD BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Thats the point, He was condemning their WORKS BASED GOSPEL.(Not to mention Circumcision was given LONG before the law!!

Baptismal regeneration is JUST AS EVIL AS WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING.


Can;t you speak English dude? Your Hebrew stuff is really getting on my nerves. Do you not realise how offensive that is??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The complete Jewish Bible says faith too.

These people make up their own bibles to fit their belief system.

 

[Ralph-]

I don't know. Should you?

Why shouldn't I call you a legalist if you think keeping the law is being a legalist. You keep the law to not steal, not murder, etc. right? According to your understanding that makes you a legalist, right?

 

[stonesoffire]

These people make up their own bibles to fit their belief system.

You mean the Hebrew Roots group? Yes, I agree. My husband and I attended one Messianic meeting but left when we realized it was worship of the Torah. I agree the Word has power when Holy Spirit is with it, but the revealing He does is about Jesus. Not law.

And that to me is scary. I would never want to stand before Father and offer how well I followed the law.

 

[Shamah]

Lol. NO ONE COULD BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Thats the point, He was condemning their WORKS BASED GOSPEL.(Not to mention Circumcision was given LONG before the law!!

Baptismal regeneration is JUST AS EVIL AS WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING.


Can;t you speak English dude? Your Hebrew stuff is really getting on my nerves. Do you not realise how offensive that is??

I never said that if you look atthe original post it double quoted the person I was quoting and they did not even say that.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”[/FONT]

 

[Shamah]

Self righteousness is defining itself. Trusting in self (works) as acceptable to God at the judgement seat of Christ. Which I think is when we die. But, obedience is belief, believing that God is and rewards....all through empowerment of Holy Spirit.

If you are referring to Hiz? He includes the law. Though he denies it. It's self evident.

Obedience is not self righteous justifed by works.



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”


[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

Why shouldn't I call you a legalist if you think keeping the law is being a legalist. You keep the law to not steal, not murder, etc. right? According to your understanding that makes you a legalist, right?

If one has the divine nature don't you think one would know by instinct not to murder? I couldn't think of any other words than by instinct.

Im far from a religious person, or being a legalist. Though that evil thinking does try to entrap me all the time. I zigzag away. Lol

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 2:9, “But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which YHWH has prepared for those who love Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

Obedience is not self righteous justifed by works.



Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”



James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."


James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."


James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"


James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."


James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

I think we believe differently about obedience Hiz. Never the twain shall meet.

 

[Shamah]

I think we believe differently about obedience Hiz. Never the twain shall meet.

Do you believe this?

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

 

[Ralph-]

Lol. NO ONE COULD BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Thats the point, He was condemning their WORKS BASED GOSPEL.(Not to mention Circumcision was given LONG before the law!!

Baptismal regeneration is JUST AS EVIL AS WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING.

The question is, why is all desire to be circumcised, or keep Sabbath, etc. automatically mean you're trying to be justified by the law?

For some reason, in the church law keeping can only be seen as one trying to earn their own salvation. They don't know it can be done for the same reasons the church says one has to not steal, or murder, etc. and that not be a works gospel.

Same for baptism. Why can some people only see having to be baptized as a works gospel?

 

[Ralph-]

I would never want to stand before Father and offer how well I followed the law.

What you don't want to do is stand before God as one who lived lawlessly-Matthew 7:23. Or does grace make it so we can and it's okay?

 

[stonesoffire]

Do you believe this?

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

I believe this is the way...and have come to this understanding. Not going back to law Hiz.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things arenaked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Rest. Sit down with Him in heavenly realms or see yourself as the righteousness of God through Jesus. Identify with Him in every way. And walk as He walked. Through Holy Spirit, free to hear and then do if a do is required.

Linen- and wool one cannot mix. Linen and the sweat band over the Face of Jesus were separated. Speaks volumes if one can hear and see.

 

[Zi]

Because those that do talk as though their piety makes them better and so they set themselves up to instruct the rest of us on how to do things the right way

The question is, why is all desire to be circumcised, or keep Sabbath, etc. automatically mean you're trying to be justified by the law?

For some reason, in the church law keeping can only be seen as one trying to earn their own salvation. They don't know it can be done for the same reasons the church says one has to not steal, or murder, etc. and that not be a works gospel.

Same for baptism. Why can some people only see having to be baptized as a works gospel?

 

[Shamah]

Do you believe this?

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

I believe this is the way...and have come to this understanding. Not going back to law Hiz.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things arenaked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Rest. Sit down with Him in heavenly realms or see yourself as the righteousness of God through Jesus. Identify with Him in every way. And walk as He walked. Through Holy Spirit, free to hear and then do if a do is required.

Linen- and wool one cannot mix. Linen and the sweat band over the Face of Jesus were separated. Speaks volumes if one can hear and see.

So true obedience is to do nothing and let Him do it? But I thought we were supposed to do His will? I get nonw can enter the kingdom based on their own merits and all need mercy, without this all would fall short, but how does this mean we do not live the life He wants us to?

SO many verses saying to do His will:

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


John 13:35, “By this shall all know that you are My taught ones, if you have love for one another.”


John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."


John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."


Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"


Mat 4:17, “From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”


John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

If He gave everything for me I feel the desire to do what He wants me to as best I can with the strength He has given me.

 

[stonesoffire]

What you don't want to do is stand before God as one who lived lawlessly-Matthew 7:23. Or does grace make it so we can and it's okay?

My lawlessness was crucified Ralph. Don't attempt to put words into my posts that I did not say.