I said (post 50402): "You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone" -
Not By Works
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I said (post 50402): "You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone" -
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Why do people even bother?
Demons believe in God. end of story. I am not arguing this crap with you. Because you will not listen
There are tons of Scripture as i have posted stating we are saved by belief alone.
i'm with you. if people are going to insist to twist and refuse to accept clear Scripture, then God speed to them, but like you I am tired of all the willful blindness.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I said no one else believes the Pharisees did not think they were righteous by the law.
He did not disagree with that. So end of story.
Keep it up you will find your self on ignore.
the pharisees thought they were righteous bt their own law, they did not even say they were followingthe Law of YHWH but they themselves said "tradition of the elders":
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]
You are to be commended for accepting my half-twisted confession which allows me to keep a little whiff of CC dignity! LOL!
I think too we need to leave that behind and move on . . .On the "faith-only" issue:
I said earlier (direct quote): "You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone"
I may have been too quick with that statement and maybe I got mixed up with someone else: not sure and I don't have the time to check it out thoroughly now: If you didn't say that, I apologize.
Here is what I am meaning: There is no Scripture that states word-for-word that "we are saved by faith alone". (Word-for-word! Exactly!) You won't find a Scripture verse that says it. (This is what I thought you admitted, but I may be wrong . . .?)
You will find Scriptures that support the doctrine of "Sola Fide" (faith alone): including James 2:14 and Romans 4 as you point out. No problem with that. I am in full support of a correct understanding of this doctrine.
I have just personally decided that in my cultural and church situation I will be misunderstood if I speak of "faith alone". I have decided there are clearer ways for me to present the doctrine of "faith alone": that is: I will speak of the grace of God working in the heart that produces a saving faith - then this faith will allow God to work through the believer to produce works to honor and glorify Him.
I am OK with being a "versologist" - not quite sure what that word was!
And I will admit there are dangers to an over-amplification of this approach.
If you don't mind can I proffer the following.
Genesis 12:1-4
Chapter 12
Promises to Abram
1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
God says "Get up and leave your country and I will do this, this I promise to you"
Abram believed had faith. God said Abram did.
His faith led to obedience.
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Ah, post 50501 was a complete mistake: I was putting together another post and must have accidently pushed a wrong button.
See post 50511
o.k. I agree with this. well, except when you say " Scripture ", you mean the 1611 version only . there are many more modern translations that are fine.
Why do many ignore the fact that Abraham had faith and works before YHWH:
FAITH:
Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”
Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."
WORKS:
Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”
FAITH + WORKS:
James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”
FAITH + WORKS:
Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
“By belief, Aḇraham obeyed”
Hebrews 11
8, “By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9, By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
17, By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son.”
Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”
Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
FAITH:
Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”
Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."
WORKS:
Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”
FAITH + WORKS:
James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”
FAITH + WORKS:
Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
“By belief, Aḇraham obeyed”
Hebrews 11
8, “By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9, By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
17, By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son.”
Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”
Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
I posted Gen 12 above
And said the following
"God says "Get up and leave your country and I will do this, this I promise you"
Abram believed, had faith. God said Abram did.
His faith led to obedience"
And you quote Hebrews 11 which I think ties in with my thoughts.
You then quote Gen15,26 then Rev 14.
What commandments did Abram have in Gen 26?
You then say FAITH + WORKS aka obedience.
I say FAITH is FAITH full stop.
Genuine FAITH in Jesus leads to obedience with produces works.
Abram had not even offered up his son, he left behind he knew and was as a result of his faith.
He heard, believed and did.
Yes because they were children of the devil...
John 8:44-45 44 [FONT="]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/FONT][FONT="]45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not...xox...[/FONT]
As to what Laws Abraham had in Gen 26, It would seem to be Sabbath because was done at creation, food laws because Noah knew them, some kind of offering/sacrifical system because cain and Abel knew them, having no mighty ones before the face of YHWH because "leave Ur", not make name of YHWH empty as Abraham himself prayed with the name of YHWH, and others buit those are off the top of my head, if I want to make a study out of it, which I have it seems Abraham had all of YHWH's Laws. But to get to the rest of the point:
well I think it would be better described as belief + works = faith, sometyhin I have known but it really just clicked in that I need to word it like that, because faith is:
Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."
“faith” is word #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.
[feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529
“faith” is word #H530 Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
“faith” #H530 Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Feminine of H0529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity:—faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.
Overall Im not saying you are "wrong", im a general view I think we agree but speciffically but I think we shoul look more directly at what is written:
Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."
Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”
I think James understands it more than you or I:
James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”
belief and works is why Abraham was right before Yah.
