Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Poor Ralph has backed himself into a corner.

No, you did that to yourself. Since you are trying to erase the distinction between the one who still sins and the one who practices and lives in sin you have effectively condemned yourself because Paul said the one who practices and lives in sin is the unsaved one who will NOT inherit the kingdom. You can be that if you want. I'm not that. I don't practice sin as I did before I got saved. I sin but I don't live in it anymore. If I did, and there was no distinction between sinning and living in sin, we're all in the group Paul said will NOT inherit the kingdom. Including you.

 

[Shamah]

Sorry Hiz, but if was not clear to me. Hence my post.

Maybe I did not make my question clear either.

Disobedience with regards to Jhon 3:36

If memory serves me you as quoted verses that it's not unbelief but disobedience.

So my question was "What is the disobedience that you believe John was talking about.

No worries, I may have not been clear also. Well if you look at my opriginal post most translation traslate it disobey and the original word means disobey.

It would be disobeying what Yahshua says.

and this is in agreement with many other things He says including this:


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Magenta]

No I did not get banned, I have been temporarily locked out by my own doing by misplacing of my new password...

I once changed my password and then promptly forgot it, too I contacted RoboOp, and he put my password back to what it had been It's like my glasses and keys: if I put them down in some new place, I may never find them again LOL

 

[Ralph-]

oh for goodness sake, we all sin no matter how hard we try not to.

But not all LIVE IN sin.

Those who live in sin are not saved and will not inherit the kingdom-1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10. The unchanged person still living in his sin is unsaved. His life shows that to be true. This is in contrast to the person who is saved and growing up into the image of Christ in ever increasing traits of the Spirit-2 Peter 1:5-11.

So we have to ask ourselves, "which am I?" We have to examine ourselves so we can know for sure about our calling and election. If you see in the mirror the person described in the passages in the first sentence above you are not saved and you will be burned up when Christ comes back. If you see in the mirror the person in 2 Peter 1:5-11 you are saved and have no need to fear the coming of Christ. You show by your life that you are saved and ready to meet Him, just as the others show by their life that they are NOT saved and ready to meet Him when He comes back.

 

[stonesoffire]

No, the Bible says confidence and fearlessness comes from being like Jesus in this world-1 John 4:17-18. But so many are taught that you do not have to fear the coming judgement because you can not lose your salvation no matter what you do, because salvation is not by works. They get deceived into thinking the way they live has no bearing on showing whether they are saved or not.

They don't know that how they live shows if they are really saved or not and are ready for Jesus when he comes back. The Bible does not teach that knowing you can never lose your salvation is how to not be afraid of the return of Jesus. It says being like Jesus in this world is how you have no fear of the return of Jesus.

Listen shamah, Ralph, I know I pledged to not answer you, but this one time I must.

You are attacking the foundation of everyone's faith. That is Jesus Christ the Righteous. And have declared yourself righteous by the way you obey. Well, the Pharisees thought the same thing. Made up their own rules how to do obedience. Put burdens on the people that God had never declared.

This is what everyone needs to hear. Jesus has saved every man, woman, child ever born into this world freely. Accepting this, turning to Him will always be out of recognizing the need for something else rather than this life of knowing somethings wrong but not knowing how to change. So men try to change themselves. Try to be good. That's the outside of the cup.

Religion is a force that is of flesh for its the spirit of natural man. Is the wrong tree. The tree of life is innocence. Eating of this tree is what we are to do. But, it takes a pure man or woman to eat of this tree. That is what Jesus is. A pure man, God, a royal blood that is ascribed to us by faith. Remember? Faith is substance in heavenly realms and draws God to us. We are given the right to eat of this tree because of blood on the mercy seat. This is communion. Eating and drinking of the whole life of Jesus. Bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh. One with Him. Because of His sacrifice. Not ours.

Jesus Himself is the tree of life. We are the leaves to the nations. Looking at the Greek, sprouts. Sprouts are those roots that grow up and reflect the same image of the tree.

That is how secure we are in Him.

And again....this is all foundational truth. God has many doors to go through for His Sons. But, it's maturity in Sonship that the doors open to. And that's completion of the spiritual man or woman. All by faith in and through Holy Spirit, that leads us to His personal will He has for us individually, and then all together.

For all together He is lovely.

Sorry for the length but this was on my hesrt.

 

[Ralph-]

Flat truth--->you are not telling the truth....end of story....I have said 50 plus times in this thread that the saved have works...

I know you said that. But you also said you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. I posted parts of the dialog between us twice as proof. I pointed out that you are trying to work both sides of the argument, and you rush to the safety of whatever side of the argument is convenient for you to be right in a particular discussion.

 

[stonesoffire]

I never said demons entrust their salvation to the Most High, I simply pointed out what was in the original language, IMO to show that this "pisteuó" alone does not save, just as James says:

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

Fact is YHWH saves and believeing alone is not enough to save:

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”


James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

my point Hiz..

[h=1]G4100[/h]πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Total KJV occurrences: 248

I asked if you were leaving part of the definition out.

 

[Rosemaryx]

No, the Bible says confidence and fearlessness comes from being like Jesus in this world-1 John 4:17-18. But so many are taught that you do not have to fear the coming judgement because you can not lose your salvation no matter what you do, because salvation is not by works. They get deceived into thinking the way they live has no bearing on showing whether they are saved or not.

They don't know that how they live shows if they are really saved or not and are ready for Jesus when he comes back. The Bible does not teach that knowing you can never lose your salvation is how to not be afraid of the return of Jesus. It says being like Jesus in this world is how you have no fear of the return of Jesus.

But once we are born again, we do not automatically become like Jesus...Are minds are renewed, and this happens by feeding on the Word of God, it is process, a journey, everyone grows at different rates...

I have been walking with our LORD for just over two years...I am now more mature than I was 6 months ago when my mind was still all over the place getting my head around what Christ has done for me, so today my life style is not the same as it was six months ago, I have grown, and I continue to run my race...I started off sitting, then standing and now I am walking, and one day God willing I shall be running...

We start off drinking milk before we can chew the meat...I am chewing the meat but still having my milk to wash it down, some are slower than others, and God knows this...As long as our heart is towards God, He is the one who directs our path, He is not going to toss us aside when we fall, backslide etc, He knows some have years of the devils lies to be squashed, traumas to deal with, many people spend their lives getting healed from God, none of this affects our walk with God, He knows who are His, only people who pretend to be Christians are the ones Jesus will say " Go away I never knew you "...xox...

 

[Ralph-]

AMEN



Amen and amen, He is faithful both to redeem and renew, a Gardner who knows how to nurture and produce a crop.

you were declared righteous and justified however by His blood, as you said - and this alone is sufficient to save you from death -- "and not only that" is in addition to having received redemption, He is faithful also to produce renewal!

you wouldn't be "lost" when He returns if there is truly "no condemnation" - why did you fear that He would not be with you? did you not believe in the righteousness He declared? will He condemn the righteous? but as you said, look, He is doing what He promised, which is more than the sufficiency of His sacrifice -- it is really good news and He is able to carry you through to completion

This is all good but if I am living in sin I show that none of this even applies to me. My life would be showing that I'm not born again for any of this to be true about me. This is the point you and others can't quite seem to get.

 

[Seohce]

Hebrews 6:1-8 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

2 Peter 2:17-22 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”



Romans 3:4 Not at all! let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[stonesoffire]

Thanks for the reps and comments. Very much appreciate the support. God is faithful.

 

[Seohce]

Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? when did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Romans 3:4 Not at all! let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[stonesoffire]

Hebrews 6:1-8 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

2 Peter 2:17-22 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”



Romans 3:4 Not at all! let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

And we all know that this This is turning back to law. The law of sin and death. There's no more sacrifice to be given then for this.

 

[Ralph-]

But once we are born again, we do not automatically become like Jesus...Are minds are renewed, and this happens by feeding on the Word of God, it is process, a journey, everyone grows at different rates...

Read my posts. This is what I've been saying. Growth OUT of sin is the sign that you are saved and will go into the kingdom when Jesus returns. No growth and living in your old life is the sign that you are not saved and will not go into the kingdom when Jesus returns-1 Corinthian 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10, Galatians 5:21.

People who are not in process do not belong to Christ. We have to examine ourselves to make sure we belong to Christ. We know if we are or not by how we live. That's called making your calling and election sure-Hebrews 6:11-12, 2 Peter 1:10. Living in your old life unchanged, not progressing toward Christ, shows you are not saved. We can not excuse that kind of life with a 'works don't matter' doctrine that says works don't matter because salvation is not by works.

 

[Shamah]

Yaaqob/James says:

James 2:19-20, "You believe that YHWH is one. (Deu 6:4) You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?"



Both times the word “believe” is used it is word #4100 - pisteuó: to believe, entrust, Original Word: πιστεύω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: pisteuó, Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o), Short Definition: I believe, have faith in, Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

my point Hiz..

G4100

πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Total KJV occurrences: 248

I asked if you were leaving part of the definition out.

the part about the Messiah?

But that is not in the word, faith in Messiah would be "pisteuó christos"

 

[Seohce]

Matthew 25:14-30 The Parable of the Talents “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ “The man with the two talents also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.’ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ “Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’



Romans 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Read my posts. This is what I've been saying. Growth OUT of sin is the sign that you are saved and will go into the kingdom when Jesus returns.

But growth out of sin is not works.

 

[stillness]

"Made perfect through suffering."
Jesus the author of our salvation learned obedience through suffering. He was sinless, the learning obedience through suffering was for us: to bring us to God. He made this possible by a change of clotting (identity) with Him: To be clothed with immortality by His Spirit. This fulfils the prophesy "I will make a way in the wilderness." Where the generation after the flesh had to die forty years: what obedience passed through in forty days: Jesus in prayer and fasting to put away His enemy.

In the communion of the Last super we partake of His body and cleansing life blood, just before He suffered for us; so that following Him as we are called, "Daily pick up your cross and follow Me." We learn of Him obedience in the things He suffered: in the fellowship of His suffering, losing our life after the flesh to have Life in the Love of God, "If I have not Love I am nothing." If your trying to fulfil the law your trying to save nothing. It's not possible to prove ourselves obedient to follow Him: it's proven impossible. After the disciples followed Jesus 3½ years: in the Communion of the Last super Jesus said to His disciples, " All of you will abandon Me this night." Even having inherited His will in the new covenant, having good will could not bring us to obedience, until empowered by His Spirit. This was foreknown in the mind of God that we had to learn of Him in the fellowship of His sufferings, to cease from our dead works: there was no other way, "If there was a law that could have made us righteous, Salvation would have been by the law." and Jesus would not have had to leave us so that we would have His Spirit. "Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit sais the Lord." God caries us into His death to all that is not of God: suffering with Him is not work if we know His Grace: the Love of God working in us, giving us identity in Christ.
Grace enables us to do "One thing," forgetting what lies behind (dead)," and walk in the Light to get more Light.

 

[Ralph-]

But growth out of sin is not works.

Not sinning, and instead doing right, is having works of righteousness. Our good deeds is the light that shines and which causes people to glorify God-Matthew 5:16.

People who don't have a light to shine are not born again. No doctrine of 'works don't matter' makes it so these people are somehow saved without having a life of ever increasing good deeds.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Read my posts. This is what I've been saying. Growth OUT of sin is the sign that you are saved and will go into the kingdom when Jesus returns. No growth and living in your old life is the sign that you are not saved and will not go into the kingdom when Jesus returns-1 Corinthian 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10, Galatians 5:21.

People who are not in process do not belong to Christ. We have to examine ourselves to make sure we belong to Christ. We know if we are or not by how we live. That's called making your calling and election sure-Hebrews 6:11-12, 2 Peter 1:10. Living in your old life unchanged, not progressing toward Christ, shows you are not saved. We can not excuse that kind of life with a 'works don't matter' doctrine that says works don't matter because salvation is not by works.

I understand what you are saying, but no one, not one person here in this thread has not had a changed life...It is God who wills us, who does the changing, because we have the Holy Spirit in us...If someone was in here saying " I got saved a few years back but my life is worse, I am still doing this and still living the same ", then I could understand what you are saying, but your addressing people in here who are truly walking with our LORD, some longer than others...

I can really relate to a lot of what you write, but your writing it to believers, your information would be good to those who live styles have not changed...Have you not read some of the deep testimonies people have written, most people in here have wrote them for us to see just how much God has moved in our lives, some has made me cry with sorrow and yet tears of Joy because of what God is doing in their lives and they are not where they used to be...

Some people could be offended by what you are saying because you are directing it towards people in this thread...Ii hope you understand me as I have taken time to understand you...xox...