Not By Works

[blue_ladybug]

Faith produces works.. But doing those works to keep salvation is wrong, and will not save you nor gain you a ticket into heaven.

 

[Hizikyah]

And if one goes missing for a while?
Then what?

for a while would be saying that one did return, if they went astray and forever reject Yah it would not end in Salvation, but if they did return it would end in salvation:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 18:12-14, “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, would he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains, going to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Thus it is not the desire of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should be lost."[/FONT]

 

[oyster67]

It sounds like the Scriptuers are saying that works is the litmus test for true faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

they are the same IMO:

to say that faith + works = salvation is false is to say James was wrong:

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"


James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

to say the faith + salvation =- works is to say a changed heart is not possibe and this is wrong:


1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”


Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”


1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."


Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”


1 Corinthians 2:9, “But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which YHWH has prepared for those who love Him.”


John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”


John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


BOTTOM LINE is this to me:

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]

Bottom line....you espouse and push a false gospel of faith plus works for salvation.....and how many times have you denied this....yet above you state it openly...

 

[Hizikyah]

oh boy, Thanks, you just proved my point, they are not the same,

the second equations states that salvation is earned by faith plus works.

It is the equation paul fraught against, (if it is of faith it is no longer by works, by works shall no person be justified, by works we were not saved but by Gods mercy)

the first question is the equation which paul used. That faith plus salvation = works.

ie, in algebra

faith plus salvation = works

1 plus 1 = 1

’If the resultant is zero. It means the equation must also be zero.

ie, if works = zero. Then faith must equal zero (it is dead) and salvation must equal zero (it is dead) which means a person never had faith, and never had salvation.

This is what James said, if one CLAIMS to have faith (he never said they had faith, he said they CLAIMEDS to have faith. But has no works. His FAITH IS ZERO. (He never had faith)

We are saved by faith, if you do not have faith, your NOT SAVED< and you will NEVER HAVE WORKS.

Let us simplify:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."
[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”


[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Bottom line....you espouse and push a false gospel of faith plus works for salvation.....and how many times have you denied this....yet above you state it openly...

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey



John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[gb9]

can you post a single time that I said that? If you know it well enough to make witness you can qwuote me saying it. If not it is false witness.

Also the Sabbath is for Hebrew and gentile alike:

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what YHWH says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying; YHWH has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what YHWH says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which please Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YHWH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the Name of YHWH, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

once a Gentile enterd covenant with YHWH they were to obey Him:


Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

o.k, so if you do not believe that Sabbath keeping has nothing to do with salvation, then keeping it would be an optional personal decision, not a must do, correct?

 

[Hizikyah]

It sounds like the Scriptuers are saying that works is the litmus test for true faith.

I think this is the simplified and sober minded truth.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

o.k, so if you do not believe that Sabbath keeping has nothing to do with salvation, then keeping it would be an optional personal decision, not a must do, correct?

Wait im still waiting for you to produce proof of your witness against me?

If you can produce it please do, if not I would like you to admit it was not true, then I will answer this.

 

[blue_ladybug]

God NEVER told us to do works for the purpose of gaining or keeping salvation...never ever..

I think this is the simplified and sober minded truth.

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Hizikyah]

God NEVER told us to do works for the purpose of gaining or keeping salvation...never ever..

yet He told us to obey Him, and those who did not obey Him would be judged for it:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "...Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[oyster67]

Faith produces works.. But doing those works to keep salvation is wrong, and will not save you nor gain you a ticket into heaven.

I do believe that keeping the faith is important. That seems to be the point that is not agreed upon by all.

 

[blue_ladybug]

A person who does works only to gain salvation, will also be judged..and denied entrance to heaven.. Salvation is NOT dependent on doing works for the sole purpose of trying to keep that salvation.

yet He told us to obey Him, and those who did not obey Him would be judged for it:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "...Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let us simplify:

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."




James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”




Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”




John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

thanks, again, next time we say you teach salvation is equal to faith plus works. Do not tell us we are wrong.

Paul said not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy. That is three times now you have totally ignored Pauls word.

 

[stonesoffire]

I think this is the simplified and sober minded truth.

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

I would think it's love of the brethren for Jesus said by this all men will know who are His disciples, doesn't it?

 

[blue_ladybug]

I never said not to keep the faith. What I said is, that salvation is not gained by doing works solely to get into heaven or maintain salvation..

I do believe that keeping the faith is important. That seems to be the point that is not agreed upon by all.

 

[Hizikyah]

Let us simplify:

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."




James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”




Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”




John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

thanks, again, next time we say you teach salvation is equal to faith plus works. Do not tell us we are wrong.

Paul said not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy. That is three times now you have totally ignored Pauls word.

Yet that was only Scriptre?


John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."


John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 –poimén)."


Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”


John/Yahanan 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”


John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”


John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.”


John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."[/FONT]

 

[stillness]

John 14:23-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Jesus answered,“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who doesn’t love Me will not keep My words. The word that you hear is not Mine but is from the Father who sent Me.


THAT IS NOT HOW TO GET YOURSELF SAVED, it is once you are saved, you can tell how the HOLY SPIRIT is really in you.

I seriously think you have totally MISUNDERSTOOD, dcontroversal

Appears that what we judge in others we find in ourselves: and what if this verse describes how to get ourselves saved: then would you be the one bearing false witness. Acts 2:40 "Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
Why not admit that we have limited view and can't nail down salvation: may even risk putting us back under the law: thinking we are right and everyone who disagrees wrong, is a mark of cult of self righteousness. A woman who is a weak Christian, told me she saw her father who died a Christian when she was young: in a dream, he told her he was granted permission to visit her from higher authority. He was wearing a crown and said to her, I had to work very hard to get this crown. This was to encourage her. This message would be easily received by Catholics, and divisions in the church are because of being in the mind of the flesh: I have a Catholic girlfriend at times she is closer to the Lord than me and times more immature. But she is much younger in Christ and in the flesh. We met here but she doesn't come here anymore because of the arguments. That may be the more immature part of her, but it also may be more mature, to tend to the Lord without distractions.

I had to work hard: I had to suffer rejection in marriage, and get past the comfort of this world in addiction to find I'm only beginning to enter the sufferings of Christ, as long as I count that joy you can hear me, is the light affliction involved labour or striving to enter into rest, considered work by some and does it mater what others and this unknown saint call it. So do we have a problem with working with Grace, that would be working with God's influence...

 

[gb9]

Wait im still waiting for you to produce proof of your witness against me?

If you can produce it please do, if not I would like you to admit it was not true, then I will answer this.

a dodge. just what I thought. i'll wait for you to mention Sabbath ( you will, you believe in it ), then i'll reference you back here.

 

[Hizikyah]

I would think it's love of the brethren for Jesus said by this all men will know who are His disciples, doesn't it?

That is one of the 2 yes indeed! and telling on who is His.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 13:35, “This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

[/FONT]However we can not get worldly love confused with YHWH's love. Worldly love can twist the idea of love into lust like "love" that justifies ones own desires or hippie like "love" that says everything is ok.

His love His standard His way His teaching.