Not By Works

[Hizikyah]

Do you keep the law or not...have you kept the law or not...a simple yes or no will suffice....?????

I will answer accordingly, as it is not a simple yes or no answer, but it is the truth. There are times I have guarde His Commands continually without sin and there are times I have sinned. Honestly it depends on how much I focus on Him, the times i have been focused on Him 100% I have walked fully in His commands. When I lose sight of Him and on't put Him before everything I don't. The times I have put Him first are some of if not the most joyful times of my life.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:103-105, “How sweet to my taste has Your word been, More than honey to my mouth! From Your orders I get understanding; Therefore I have hated every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:151-152, “You are near, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], And all Your commands are truth. Of old I have known Your witnesses, That You have founded them forever.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Again the lawyers and Pharisees fail to understand numerous things...

a. No one keeps the law

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"


*What is sin, that we may not continue in it?


1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

b. No one is justified by keeping the law (see a)

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”



Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

c. If you break one of the least you are guilty of the whole (see a)

James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”

d. The law is weak through the flesh (see a)

Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”

e. The law does not save (see a)

1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"

f. The law condemns (see a)

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

g. The law points to grace, truth and CHRIST (SEE A)

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושעMessiah."

h. The law has been NAILED to the cross (see a)

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

i. If you live by law keeping you must keep all laws 24/7/365 your whole life or your guilty (see a)

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

j. NO ONE KEEPS THE LAW AS it shuts every mouth (see a)

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."


1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."


1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."

k. LAW or GRACE one or the other (see a)

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

l. Blending law and grace is like oil and water (see a and Galatians chapter 1 and 3)

Galatians 2:19, “For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”


Romans 7:25, “Thank God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, because with my mind I myself can serve the Law of God, even while with my human nature I serve the law of sin.”



Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."


Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

 

[Endoscopy]

We are born again. Holy Spirit given to us within and gifts given for living a pleasing life before Father by faith. He loves it when we believe what He says. So what written law is necessary when we can converse with Him daily?

The reason for the law for Christians is to know what sin is. Paul said without the law he wouldn't know what sin is. How can we ask for forgiveness of our sins if we are ignorant of them. The law keeps us humble and understanding why we need the sacrifice of Jesus to be made right with God.

 

[Endoscopy]

Due to the quirks of the site I edited this offline and am pasting it to the board. Selecting texts and going back and forth from the browser to get something to paste often times exits me from the open post I was trying to make. Never had this many problems on other forums.


Originally Posted by Endoscopy
Simple theological facts from the Bible.
1. The law is in force according to Jesus.
I never said it wasn't.


2. Sin is transgression of the law.
I never said it wasn't.


(Without the law there is no sin. Paul said the law told him what was sin.)
Romans 7


The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


Magenta
“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression.” Romans 5:14.


“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to Whom the promise was made.” Galatians 3:19


The law was added due to transgression, which is sin. You even said so yourself!!


Endoscopy
Backwards and I didn't say that. Go read what I said again. A law always existed. Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the one tree. That was their law. They broke it. Cain and Abel made sacrifices for their sins so there was a law they understood. The Mosaic Law was written by Moses but didn't start with him. He just recorded it. It is not recorded when those laws started. Coming down from Adam to Moses sacrifices were made so there was a known law for those people.


​The LAW is the 10 Commandments and all of the 613 mitzvot recorded in the Torah.


Live with what Jesus said!!! Quit taking those verses out of the Bible!!! See below for what Jesus said. Matthew 5:17 to 20.


3. Jesus paid the penalty for our transgressions of the law.


Magenta
And you need to say this because...??? You are deluded if you think this has been disputed by me.


Endoscopy
What need of Jesus crucifixion if the law is not in force. No law then no sin.


Magenta
Gosh. See above. The law was added due to transgression. Transgression is sin.
>>> error 1 Endoscopy
Transgression of what??
Sin is the transgression of the law. Without the law there is no transgression therefore no sin. Therefore the law had to be there first. Paul said that the law told him what was sin. Romans 7:7 to 13 see above.


Endoscopy
What is so hard to understand about these facts Magenta?


Magenta
The law was added due to transgression. Transgression is sin.
Therefore, sin existed before the law was given.
>>> error 2 Endoscopy
Again transgression of what???


What is so hard to understand about this fact, Endoscopy?
Read above at >>> error 1 Endoscopy


Now, back to the point of you refusing to admit that you put words in Jesus' mouth... which is what you kicking up this fuss is all about. Instead of simply admitting you were wrong, you serve up red herrings and dance around trying to distract from that fact. I would rather watch Walter Huston do the jig


Endoscopy
Here are the words I put in Jesus mouth. Keep in mind that the 10 Commandments and the 613 mitzvot are the law recorded in the Torah. You claim that you agree with this.


Matthew 5:17 to 20 NIV


The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


What words are you saying I put in the mouth of Jesus incorrectly? Sometimes I had more verses ahead of this quote. You confuse me on this point!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason for the law for Christians is to know what sin is. Paul said without the law he wouldn't know what sin is. How can we ask for forgiveness of our sins if we are ignorant of them. The law keeps us humble and understanding why we need the sacrifice of Jesus to be made right with God.

If a christian does not know what sin is, How could they have repented? This makes no sense.

 

[Endoscopy]

If a christian does not know what sin is, How could they have repented? This makes no sense.

Your post is nonsense about what I stated. You are making my point with other words. Go reread my post!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your post is nonsense about what I stated. You are making my point with other words. Go reread my post!!!

The reason for the law for Christians is to know what sin is. Paul said without the law he wouldn't know what sin is. How can we ask for forgiveness of our sins if we are ignorant of them. The law keeps us humble and understanding why we need the dsacrifice of Jesus to be made right with God.

AGAIN!! If a christian DOES NOT KNOW WHAT SIN IS! HOW COULD THERY HAVE REPENTED.

 

[Bogadile]

The reason for the law for Christians is to know what sin is. Paul said without the law he wouldn't know what sin is. How can we ask for forgiveness of our sins if we are ignorant of them. The law keeps us humble and understanding why we need the sacrifice of Jesus to be made right with God.

I wish you could see the difference between the ceremonial laws and the laws that the conscience bears witness to. The latter is the one that is used when preaching the Gospel, you show people they have violated God's commandments by telling them about dishonoring parents or speaking lies, not by telling them about the dietary laws or wearing tassels. These are not moral obligations for the Christian.

We are no longer under the law of Moses, and you are right that heaven and earth has not passed away yet, however Jesus did shout on the cross that IT IS FINISHED! This is when the earthly mission of Jesus was completed, the law was fulfilled and the blood was shed for our sins. Later on the Father then sent us the Holy Spirit. This is the new covenant.

You cannot pick and choose, either ALL the law of Moses is in effect, or none of it is.

 

[dcontroversal]

I will answer accordingly, as it is not a simple yes or no answer, but it is the truth. There are times I have guarde His Commands continually without sin and there are times I have sinned. Honestly it depends on how much I focus on Him, the times i have been focused on Him 100% I have walked fully in His commands. When I lose sight of Him and on't put Him before everything I don't. The times I have put Him first are some of if not the most joyful times of my life.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:103-105, “How sweet to my taste has Your word been, More than honey to my mouth! From Your orders I get understanding; Therefore I have hated every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:151-152, “You are near, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], And all Your commands are truth. Of old I have known Your witnesses, That You have founded them forever.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]

Yep....see.....what you cannot grasp is the fact that you are a law breaker.....not a law keeper....it jas done it's job ajd condemned you before God as guilty.....NOW in Christ you have been set free from the LAW and are FREE in Christ....the condemnation of the law is no longer leveled against you, you are no longer BOUND DOWN UNDER IT AND the righteousness of CHRIST WITHOUT THE LAW HAS BEEN IMPUTED BY FAITH TO YOUR BKRN AGAIN SPIIRT WHICH IS BORN OF INCORRUPTABLE SEED....the FLESH IS STILL DEAD, CONTRARY AND NOT SUBJECT UNTO THE LAW OF GOD.....if you still SEEK to be justified by the law then you are still found guilty and a law BREAKER!

 

[dcontroversal]

AGAIN!! If a christian DOES NOT KNOW WHAT SIN IS! HOW COULD THERY HAVE REPENTED.

Sjch is the way with lawyers.....confused and confusing all around them with double talk and laying burdens they themselves cannot even begin to keep......Did not Jesus level woes to the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers.......

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Luke 7

39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Luke 7

39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

She loved her Master so much, this Scripture always touches me because it truly shows how gentle in heart Jesus is, and how all she had was her love to give Him which was enough, it`s a beautiful Scripture ...Love covers a multitude of sins...xox...

1 Peter 4:8 8 [FONT=&quot]And above all things have fervent love for one another, for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“love will cover a multitude of sins.”..[/FONT]

 

[BillG]

They are the LAW!! Transgression of this law is sin! This is why all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God!!! This law is the law Jesus said would endure until heaven and earth disappear and ALL is accomplished.

So is that you saying we must obey all 613 as I asked you?Yes our no will suffice.

If yes please say why.
If no please way why.

I only ask because I don't fully get where you are coming from

 

[TruthTalk]

Sjch is the way with lawyers.....confused and confusing all around them with double talk and laying burdens they themselves cannot even begin to keep......Did not Jesus level woes to the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers.......

(Yes Jesus did).

Hey Decon, does not Endoscopy understand that the Law is not abolished, contrary it is establish and fulfilled through Christ Jesus. We are required to "confess our sins" 1John1:9. not focus on the, "Law of sin and death." You must stand on your head to understand this foolish gospel.

Has Phart reinvented himself as, "keep looking at the Law", and dropped the "keep believing" false gospel. Endoscopy is putting the Law in front of his Christian life so that he can make sure he does not sin, when in fact the sin problem was dealt with on the cross.

A pity people still wish to cling to that which produced "death", instead of reaching out to Jesus and finding rivers of "Living Water" John7:38

"Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Romans10:4

 

[TruthTalk]

You cannot pick and choose, either ALL the law of Moses is in effect, or none of it is.

Amen Bogadile, we do not need to focus on the "ministry that brought death" but rather focus on our Saviour Jesus Christ who paid our sin debt; Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, put Jesus in front of your life and praise Him everyday.

"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?…" 2Corinthians3:7,8

 

[stonesoffire]

The reason for the law for Christians is to know what sin is. Paul said without the law he wouldn't know what sin is. How can we ask for forgiveness of our sins if we are ignorant of them. The law keeps us humble and understanding why we need the sacrifice of Jesus to be made right with God.

Not according to scripture for this period of time. Light has come!

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;


Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Its the work of Holy Spirit now, and is to save. Not condemn.

 

[TruthTalk]

Not according to scripture for this period of time. Light has come!

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;


Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Its the work of Holy Spirit now, and is to save. Not condemn.

Thank you Stonesoffire, it does not ever do a believer good to mix, "grace with law", as Decon already pointed out; "Such is the way with lawyers.....confused and confusing all around them with double talk." and here; "Did not Jesus level woes to the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers." "And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." Luke2:40

2Corinthians3:14-18
14) But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2Corinthians3:14-18

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you Stonesoffire, it does not ever do a believer good to mix, "grace with law", as Decon already pointed out; "Such is the way with lawyers.....confused and confusing all around them with double talk." and here; "Did not Jesus level woes to the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers." "And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." Luke2:40

2Corinthians3:14-18
14) But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2Corinthians3:14-18

Amen bro.....works of the law or grace....PAUL was clear...one or the other......not both....funny how the bible makes the distinction between MOSES AND JESUS, Law or Grace, Old Covenant or New, Old inferior way or the new, better and living way, Old priesthood under the law and the Priesthood of Jesus etc.....and yet people will still attempt to blend both while rejecting the fact that Jesus was born, lived and died under the law which RATIFIED THE NEW COVENANT.....the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith without works or the works of the law..............

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you Stonesoffire, it does not ever do a believer good to mix, "grace with law", as Decon already pointed out; "Such is the way with lawyers.....confused and confusing all around them with double talk." and here; "Did not Jesus level woes to the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers." "And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." Luke2:40

2Corinthians3:14-18
14) But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2Corinthians3:14-18

Amen bro.....works of the law or grace....PAUL was clear...one or the other......not both....funny how the bible makes the distinction between MOSES AND JESUS, Law or Grace, Old Covenant or New, Old inferior way or the new, better and living way, Old priesthood under the law and the Priesthood of Jesus etc.....and yet people will still attempt to blend both while rejecting the fact that Jesus was born, lived and died under the law which RATIFIED THE NEW COVENANT.....the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith without works or the works of the law..............

 

[TruthTalk]

Anybody know why Bogadile "got banned", God less you!

Bogadile

Banned

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