Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I forgot to add you to the list of people who say the requirement to have to keep believing is a works gospel.

But anyway, I'm not "working to stay saved", I'm trusting in Christ to stay saved. Trusting is not working:

"5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

So, please folks, stop saying 'believing' is a work of the damnable works gospel. As we can plainly see in the verse above present tense believing is being CONTRASTED with working, not being equated with it as you folks are doing. It's okay to have to do 'believing' in order to be saved and stay saved. Believing is not a works gospel, lol.

If you were not working to be saved, You would consider yourself saved forever by the faith you already had. And stop trying to stay in faith to maintain your salvation.


John 6, It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent.

If continued faith is required. Then we have 2 issues.

1. God failed at his work to keep us in faith
2. God lied. And it is not his work, and his power. But our work and our power.

 

[PHart]

It is considered a work when it is required to maintain or earn a wage or reward.

Just show us the verse that says if believing/trusting "is required to maintain or earn a wage or reward" then it's considered a work of one trying to save themselves.

You have no argument until you can back up what you say with scripture. Up to now after countless requests for this verse or passage none of you have been able to produce it. I think maybe you guys are the ones who need to admit you were wrong in it's own thread for all to see, not me, lol. I will IF you produce that scripture. It's been months now and you apparently haven't found it yet.

 

[PHart]

...stop trying to stay in faith to maintain your salvation.

Why should I listen to you tell me to ignore the Bible which tells me to hold fast to the gospel word? Please explain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just show us the verse that says if believing/trusting "is required to maintain or earn a wage or reward" then it's considered a work of one trying to save themselves.

Your the one who says it is required to earn or maintain salvation. Not the Bible. So of course I will not be able to find a verse.

I see verses like has been saved, Has been justified, Have been born again, Have been given eternal life, Not may be saved, or may be justified, or may be given eternal life. Or temporarily born again as long as, or whatever it is you want to pass off as a gospel.

You have no argument until you can back up what you say with scripture. Up to now after countless requests for this verse or passage none of you have been able to produce it. I think maybe you guys are the ones who need to admit you were wrong in it's own thread for all to see, not me, lol. I will IF you produce that scripture. It's been months now and you haven't found it yet.

How can we produce something that is not there.

YOUR the one saying Continued beliefe is required. Not us, It is iup to you to prove you point. Not us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why should I listen to you tell me to ignore the Bible which tells me to hold fast to the gospel word? Please explain.

Well then hold fast. Like we all should do. Prove your faith was real. And not just words. Prove you were not just playing church, but are an actual member of the royal family of God. Born of the spirit. Sealed by that spirit, and given all the things Paul said we have in our possession in eph 1.

Or continue to try to maintain it, Leading me to believe you never really had faith at all. As your faith is in your ability. Not in Gods power.

Will God give you a reason to lose faith or not? You have been asked this many times. Why do you refuse to answer?

How can one lose faith when the one they are trusting NEVER lets them down.

The only way to lose faith is to

1. Have believed in another gospel first. And you never really lost faith in that to begin with (see jews who returned to law)

2. Never really believed to begin with, But loved the blessings gained by associating yourself with a group of people who love each other. But since it never took root. That can only last so long, it will eventually fail

3. You never really had faith to begin with, You just said a prayer and confessed faiht just in case this God thing is correct. Basically a get out of jail free card.

There is no other reason to lose faith and deny God becoming an antichrist (of course you reject Johns words also so why should I expect you to listen to anyone else)

 

[stonesoffire]

IOW, continue to trust in God. This is exactly what I've been saying all along, lol, but dcon, eg, truthtalk, and VCO say that's a works gospel. How absurd.

When you say it Phart, it comes across as if one is always on some kind of shaky ground, being tossed back and forth from faith to unbelief.

We do have trials, some sent by the enemy, and others just a result of life. This is where the stones of remembrance come into play. Found in the OT, but not looking right now. You look back at the faithfulness of the Lord in the past, and remember the promises.

If you do not have an answer for what to do in these situations Phart, then your warnings are fearmongering.

 

[preacher4truth]

When you say it Phart, it comes across as if one is always on some kind of shaky ground, being tossed back and forth from faith to unbelief.

We do have trials, some sent by the enemy, and others just a result of life. This is where the stones of remembrance come into play. Found in the OT, but not looking right now. You look back at the faithfulness of the Lord in the past, and remember the promises.

If you do not have an answer for what to do in these situations Phart, then your warnings are fearmongering.

The ground is always shaky in any false gospel of maintaining one's salvation. There is no real assurance, their salvation can be lost at any moment by personal failure showing their salvation is up to them and what they do.

This fallacy also rejects the truths of the completed transaction of God, Romans 8:28-39, wherein all believers will experience each phase of their salvation, including final glorification. None will be lost.

PHart hasn't believed this, hasn't believed the fact that he is already saved as he must continue doing something or else if he doesn't he is lost.

Again.

He says this isn't maintaining salvation, but that is false and absurd. His salvation is up to him, not God or the finished completed work of Christ because if he fails it is off to hell. That is a false and schizophrenic gospel. Thank God for his salvation.

The sad thing is PHart will continue separating sheep from sheep, and wheat from wheat.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Because it IS a works gospel. If you're believing on God to stay saved, and for that purpose ONLY, then it IS works-based because you're trying to do what God has already done. The very moment you believed in Him, you were saved. And still ARE saved. Like I said before, it's natural to believe in Him, and what He's done for us. It's as natural as eating, or taking a shower.

Belief in and of itself is not a work. Neither is trust. BUT if it's done with a self-serving purpose in mind, then it DOES become a work. Belief in God is an ongoing thing, but trusting that you have to KEEP BELIEVING in order to stay saved, is just unnecessary.. Belief and trust in God is an automatic, natural emotion once you've been saved. It's something you WANT to do, it's not something you NEED to do to stay saved. If that were true, then Jesus would have to die on the cross every day to save you.. Once you have salvation, it is NEVER taken away. I honestly don't know why you can't understand that..

You never answered my question. HOW do you know today, whether you will be still believing/trusting God tomorrow? You can't foresee the future. You always talk about "presently believing", but what about tomorrow? Tomorrow is the future, so what makes you believe that you will be "presently believing" when tomorrow arrives? What if, God forbid, your wife or child is in a horrific accident, and dies, and you're just so shell shocked that you can't fathom why God allowed it, and you just stop believing and trusting Him altogether? Then where is your "present belief"?

I forgot to add you to the list of people who say the requirement to have to keep believing is a works gospel.

But anyway, I'm not "working to stay saved", I'm trusting in Christ to stay saved. Trusting is not working:

"5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

So, please folks, stop saying 'believing' is a work of the damnable works gospel. As we can plainly see in the verse above present tense believing is being CONTRASTED with working, not being equated with it as you folks are doing. It's okay to have to do 'believing' in order to be saved and stay saved. Believing is not a works gospel, lol.

 

[Bogadile]

PHart what is this "keep believing" gospel? Who needs to strive to keep believing? What in the world.

Yes I am ready for the bible verses. The ones that say continue, and keep in memory.

 

[preacher4truth]

PHart what is this "keep believing" gospel? Who needs to strive to keep believing? What in the world.

Yes I am ready for the bible verses. The ones that say continue, and keep in memory.

1 Corinthians 15:2, Colossians 1:23.

 

[Enow]

1 Corinthians 15:2, Colossians 1:23.

Best keep it in context what that belief and faith is about rather than the act of continuing to believe and keeping faith.

1 Corinthians 15:1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;[SUP] 2 [/SUP]By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.[SUP] 21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled[SUP] 22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight [SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Former believers are still saved. They are at risk of being let behind for denying Him, but He still abides in them.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[SUP] 12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

That is why we labor to call saved believers and even saved former believers to repentance or else be denied attendance to the Marriage Supper at the pre trib rapture event, thus excommunicated into the bed of the coming great tribulation to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House as that IS where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are in His House still.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]18[/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the exhortation to continue to believe and to keep the faith is not for salvation, because they are saved, but for being received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House.

 

[preacher4truth]

Best keep it in context what that belief and faith is about rather than the act of continuing to believe and keeping faith.

I only offered the texts they misuse. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

 

[VCO]

Sadly, it seams people are free to slander and attack others all they want, And if anyone confronts them for it. It is a bad thing.

I guess it explains why the church is in such a sad state.. everyone is afraid to confront people of sin..

I didn't know that MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY was a Small Cohort.

 

[stonesoffire]

Guys, I must apologize for my posting and being in and out of the forums lately. Much going on in the house, and then with appts.

I just wanted to make a comment on why I think we get caught in trying to work to please God. This actually helped to understand why I was so caught in this trap too for so long.

Its the natural state of our being to do something to please another. But, it's always a work that we expect something back in return. So it's selfish. A self centered work. Not pure. Not so with Jesus.

He did His work with the pure motive of Only for others. He gave all that He was in the heavenlies to come down lower to our level, and literally poured out His lifeblood.

He only wants our faith. To believe that He is God, and in representing Father to us, He showed us the true character of Father.

The law of sin and death does not do that. And Father, the Fatherhood of God was hidden to us until Jesus came.

So we were lied to from the beginning. Adam believed and we all fell for it. Only believing gets us out of this mess.

Then are we prepared for the inheritance of Sonship.

Otherwise, we will continue to mistrust and try to go through that narrow way, another way.

In faith, we will receive His gifts, and our response? Love! What Father is hoping for.

 

[TruthTalk]

The ground is always shaky in any false gospel of maintaining one's salvation. There is no real assurance, their salvation can be lost at any moment by personal failure showing their salvation is up to them and what they do.

This fallacy also rejects the truths of the completed transaction of God, Romans 8:28-39, wherein all believers will experience each phase of their salvation, including final glorification. None will be lost.

PHart hasn't believed this, hasn't believed the fact that he is already saved as he must continue doing something or else if he doesn't he is lost.

Again.

He says this isn't maintaining salvation, but that is false and absurd. His salvation is up to him, not God or the finished completed work of Christ because if he fails it is off to hell. That is a false and schizophrenic gospel. Thank God for his salvation.

The sad thing is PHart will continue separating sheep from sheep, and wheat from wheat.

The issue to me with Phart's fake gospel has always been, "Assurance of the Believer", ie; you can "unseal", the Holy Spirit who is the guarantor of our salvation. A Pastor once told our congregation, "you can work your fool self to death trying to gain eternal salvation or you can trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

One belief leads to Peace and Joy in the the Lord, the other leads to strife and discouragement.

I truly like what Stonesoffire and Preacher4truth are saying in this post, plus this;
Quote: Preacher4truth,

"The sad thing is PHart will continue separating sheep from sheep, and wheat from wheat."

The gospel is not, a little bit of me and a little bit of Jesus, salvation is all of Jesus.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians2:8-10

Saved unto good works, not saved by your good works. If you keep mixing salvation with anything you do to keep being saved you have fallen from grace.

 

[PHart]

PHart what is this "keep believing" gospel? Who needs to strive to keep believing? What in the world.

Yes I am ready for the bible verses. The ones that say continue, and keep in memory.

I will feed them to you slowly...

"3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent." (Revelation 3: NASB)

(Folks, brace yourself for the 'they don't really mean that' arguments coming down the pike.)

 

[VCO]

IOW, continue to trust in God. This is exactly what I've been saying all along, lol, but dcon, eg, truthtalk, and VCO say that's a works gospel. How absurd.

Like I said before, it is the way you word it, that makes it a works righteous statement. Such as your statement (Faith + Works = genuine Salvation), that is a pure works righteous statement. It is Grace through FAITH plus nothing you can add to it, that equals Salvation. Even the FAITH is something the Holy Spirit put in a true believer.

Grace through FAITH plus Works is a False Doctrine of Salvation.

Grace through FAITH plus Climbing into a Baptistry is a Flase Doctrine of Salvation.

Grace through FAITH plus Church Membership is a False Doctrine of Salvation.

Grace through FAITH plus Circumcision is a False Doctrine of Salvation.

Grace through FAITH plus Keeping the Sabbath is a False Doctrine of Salvation.


Anything you try to add to "Grace through FAITH" makes it a False Doctrine of Salvation.

Obedience is something every true Christian, AFTER THEY ARE SAVED, will strive to do as a way to show our LOVE for GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, BUT IT IS NOT PART OF HOW A TRUE CHRISTIAN IS SAVED:


Galatians 3:5-6 (ESV)
[SUP]5-6 [/SUP]Does He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Romans 4:3-5 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Clearly what Verse 5 above is saying, is the ONE who does not add anything to "You are Saved by Grace through Faith", is the one who is counted as Righteous. But that is NOT WHAT YOU ARE FREQUENTLY saying, because you keep trying to include obedient works in the fomula for how a man is SAVED.

We do not see you saying, "I will strive to walk in Obedience, because MY LORD SAVED ME, and I want to show my Love for HIM."

Awhile back someone said, that your biggest stumbling block is your phobia of being labeled OSAS. I am beginning to think they were right.

 

[PHart]

When you say it Phart, it comes across as if one is always on some kind of shaky ground, being tossed back and forth from faith to unbelief.

Good Lord, no! When you are believing you're on the firmest ground in all the universe!

We do have trials, some sent by the enemy, and others just a result of life. This is where the stones of remembrance come into play. Found in the OT, but not looking right now. You look back at the faithfulness of the Lord in the past, and remember the promises.

If you do not have an answer for what to do in these situations Phart, then your warnings are fearmongering.

Keep believing, lol. That's the answer. This is not rocket science!

 

[PHart]

Like I said before, it is the way you word it, that makes it a works righteous statement. Such as your statement (Faith + Works = genuine Salvation), that is a pure works righteous statement.

Only in your mind. Calvinists seem completely and utterly unable to understand Matthew 25:31-46 and how having the faith to be saved (not justified) from the lake of fire on the day of Judgment is measured by what you did. Those works don't earn the right to go to the right and into the kingdom. They are the proof of the person's claim to have the faith that justifies apart from works, which is the faith that loves (Galatians 5:6).

Even when you explain this Calvinists, and those influenced by Calvinism, they still can't see what you're saying. Even right now this second as you are reading this you can't help but to only be able to think in the 'works means you're trying to save yourself' rut of Calvinistic thought. I've never seen a more hardened indoctrination in the church than Calvinism. Even people who say they aren't Calvinist argue using arguments that show the Calvinist influence on their thinking.

It is Grace through FAITH plus nothing you can add to it, that equals Salvation.

No, that equals JUSTIFICATION. Faith that does not produce works is NOT salvation. Even you say that faith WILL produce works, so faith + works DOES = salvation, because ultimately true salvation won't be void of works. You can't argue the point.

Even the FAITH is something the Holy Spirit put in a true believer.

Yes, faith (the ability to know something is true) is from God, but we have to respond to the gift of faith with our trust, our believing. And continue to respond to God's gift of 'knowing' with our trust. Trusting Christ is NOT the works gospel. But you have been trained to think that if you have to do ANYTHING to receive salvation and keep it you are working for your salvation, oblivious, it seems, to the fact that Paul said works of the law are what constitute the works that can not justify, not believing/ trusting in Christ, lol.

 

[Mercy4u]

No, that equals JUSTIFICATION. Faith that does not produce works is NOT salvation. Even you say that faith WILL produce works, so faith + works DOES = salvation, because ultimately true salvation won't be void of works. You can't argue the point.

I agree with your point here. Those of the mindset that say believers WILL produce works, and if they don't they were really not saved. Are saying exactly the same thing as you.

Salvation is Gods grace/free gift to anyone who believes. Acts 16:31. And they are eternally secure and will NEVER perish. John 10:28.

If,If,If we continue in His plan for our lives and produce divine good. He has rewards for those who abide(follow His plan) in Him.

Salvation is a done deal the moment we believe. We have eternal life.

Our rewards are based upon our obeying him or not obeying Him after we are saved.

Eph 2:10
King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should(subjunctive mood/maybe we will/maybe we won't) walk in them.

Rev 22:12
New American Standard Bible
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.