Not By Works
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PHart
Guest
Yes, it is sad that there are people here who twist the analogy so that Jesus is the Lasagna in the hope of ridiculing it instead of using scripture to discuss what I actually said.
You know what they say, if you can't beat an argument, ridicule it.
The False concept that FAITH plus WORKS equals Salvation, is a FALSE GOSPEL.
Here is the Proof.
Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Therefore, if we can find out how GOD saved one man,
We will know how HE saves all human beings.
Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say?
Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works {to earn his Salvation}, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work {to earn his Salvation}, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
Ephesians 2:4-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through ⌊His⌋ kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
We were saved by GRACE through FAITH (☜ Even that FAITH was deposited there by the Holy Spirit.), therefore it is part of the GIFT OF GOD.
Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Now there is where Obedience comes from, AFTER we were SAVED the very moment we genuinely first BELIEVED. It SPAWNS out of GOD's LOVE that He, the Holy Spirit, poured into our Hearts, and therefore it is HOW WE SHOW OUR LOVE FOR GOD AFTER WE ARE SAVED.
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PHart
Guest
I was.
I am saying the unsealing of the Holy Spirit is not the rock that God can not lift. He can go out of a person as easily as He came in. Now the argument seems to have shifted toward He won't go out of a person. But this kind of shifting is common in these kinds of arguments. I posted the verse that says God will take away a person's part in the Tree of Life. Wasn't good enough, apparently.
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PHart
Guest
Although even the Bible itself kind of mixes up the terms, the argument being set forth is that 'Faith plus nothing = justification'. But in a salvation 'Faith + Works = genuine salvation'. As far as I can see, most here at one time or another agree with this. Until we start talking about the necessity for works, then they go back to the 'no works' argument, lol. Out of defensiveness, I presume.
If a person gets to the Day of Christ's Judgment with nothing more than a profession of faith and no works to validate that profession as genuine, that person will be tossed into the Lake of Fire. Not because works somehow earn being saved from the Lake of Fire, but because works are how Christ is going to justly judge whether you believe and trust in Him and love him (Matthew 25).
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Yes, I agree. You used an example of sealing and unsealing leftovers to make a point. The charge that this was blasphemous is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Whether I agree with the point you were trying to make or not, I can follow your example. One man (Donne I think) compared the trinity to...a flea. He was not being blasphemous. He was using an everyday thing to highlight something spiritual. Jesus did that all of the time.
Do fleas eat lasagna...?
I've been quietly reading this thread. The debates that have turned into arguments which have led to name calling and twisting of one's own character. It's fine to passionate, but we must also show God's love.
I can't help but see Christ's body(the church) as a vast group of people because God created our differences. Yet to be a born again blood bought Christian, there is only one way...yet so many doctrines and denominations. Of course, God knew this would be the case. He knows all. So what matters? We have the Jews and the old law. We have Jesus Christ and grace for the gentiles, where Christ let's everything hang on faith in His death and resurrection and loving one another the way He loves us. Diversity is part of His creation, but He certainly separated the Jews and gentiles and called Paul to do so. Under the old law, you have the commandments which man failed at miserably. So those that follow the old law do works as part of salvation. As gentiles, we accept Christ's death and resurrection as truth. We then seek to walk in His will. We choose to serve Him according to each of our purposes. He grows us in spirit and truth and shows us with His love, how to love others. We do our best to please Him and obey the past commandments...not because they are our salvation, not because works are our salvation, but because they are good for us. Why is this so confusing and if you don't see it that way...well, you don't. As long as your washed in the blood...God will find ways to put you where He wants you! May not always be pleasant...sometimes it's really tough love.
I can't help but see Christ's body(the church) as a vast group of people because God created our differences. Yet to be a born again blood bought Christian, there is only one way...yet so many doctrines and denominations. Of course, God knew this would be the case. He knows all. So what matters? We have the Jews and the old law. We have Jesus Christ and grace for the gentiles, where Christ let's everything hang on faith in His death and resurrection and loving one another the way He loves us. Diversity is part of His creation, but He certainly separated the Jews and gentiles and called Paul to do so. Under the old law, you have the commandments which man failed at miserably. So those that follow the old law do works as part of salvation. As gentiles, we accept Christ's death and resurrection as truth. We then seek to walk in His will. We choose to serve Him according to each of our purposes. He grows us in spirit and truth and shows us with His love, how to love others. We do our best to please Him and obey the past commandments...not because they are our salvation, not because works are our salvation, but because they are good for us. Why is this so confusing and if you don't see it that way...well, you don't. As long as your washed in the blood...God will find ways to put you where He wants you! May not always be pleasant...sometimes it's really tough love.
Something just came to me, that I believe is a thought that came from the Holy Spirit.
Why has this thread lasted so LONG? Because GOD IS TOTALLY IN CONTROL, and He
wants the Message that Salvation is by GRACE throught FAITH, which is a GIFT from GOD;
totally apart from Works; proclaimed over and over in these last days. TIME is critically short,
and that is the most important message, for this time period.
Matthew 24:23-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’
do not believe it!
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs
and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
2 John 1:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Many deceivers have gone out into the world;. . .
2 Timothy 3:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Evil people and impostors will become worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according
to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch
to hear something new.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Acts 20:29-31 (NKJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you,
not sparing the flock. [SUP]30 [/SUP] Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking
perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone
night and day with tears.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and
our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word
or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,
the son of perdition,
We are watching these things unfold, here on this thread:
Revelation 22:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] He who testifies to these things says,
"Surely I am coming quickly." Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
Why has this thread lasted so LONG? Because GOD IS TOTALLY IN CONTROL, and He
wants the Message that Salvation is by GRACE throught FAITH, which is a GIFT from GOD;
totally apart from Works; proclaimed over and over in these last days. TIME is critically short,
and that is the most important message, for this time period.
Matthew 24:23-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’
do not believe it!
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs
and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
2 John 1:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Many deceivers have gone out into the world;. . .
2 Timothy 3:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Evil people and impostors will become worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according
to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch
to hear something new.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Acts 20:29-31 (NKJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you,
not sparing the flock. [SUP]30 [/SUP] Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking
perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone
night and day with tears.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and
our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word
or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,
the son of perdition,
We are watching these things unfold, here on this thread:
Revelation 22:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] He who testifies to these things says,
"Surely I am coming quickly." Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
No one who believes that we do works after we are saved even begin to think they earn anything other than the eternal reward promised when we arrive in the Kingdom. All wish to hear Jesus say to each of us, good and faithful servant enter into your reward.
We who believe we are to obey God according to the teachings of Jesus Christ do wait for Him to give us each works, good works, for just as He worked because His Father continued to work, so must we.
I would like to thing the pople who claim to be living in grace have the faith to do the same. I sould like to think they do not ssay to each other,
We are saved by Jesus, so now the world owes us a living.
Now if anyone here thinks godo works ae something incredibly out of reach, know this, do you pray? This is godo works. Do you love your enemy? Good works. Do you wait for the Lord? Good works. Are you chosen to heal? Good works. Teach? Good works.
As for obeying God's commanments, learn from the teaching of Jesus christ what and how this is to be. You will not, and should not believe anyone before you believe Him.
We must labor to enter into His rest......this is true and sure. God bless allwho seek to please Jesus Christ and not just ourselves....amen.
We who believe we are to obey God according to the teachings of Jesus Christ do wait for Him to give us each works, good works, for just as He worked because His Father continued to work, so must we.
I would like to thing the pople who claim to be living in grace have the faith to do the same. I sould like to think they do not ssay to each other,
We are saved by Jesus, so now the world owes us a living.
Now if anyone here thinks godo works ae something incredibly out of reach, know this, do you pray? This is godo works. Do you love your enemy? Good works. Do you wait for the Lord? Good works. Are you chosen to heal? Good works. Teach? Good works.
As for obeying God's commanments, learn from the teaching of Jesus christ what and how this is to be. You will not, and should not believe anyone before you believe Him.
We must labor to enter into His rest......this is true and sure. God bless allwho seek to please Jesus Christ and not just ourselves....amen.
Interesting statement.
Gal 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
The fruit of the Spirit does not accuse, condemn, mock, make fun of, ridicule, get mad at, be hateful towards, belittle, bully, threaten, judge, assume eternal destinations of anyone with opposing viewpoints. Both sides are cutting each down here.
Nor does the excuse we are just engaging in apologetic sword fighting refute the gross lack of the evidence of love and fruit of the Spirit on this thread.
There is no evidence on either side of the debate that love is being patient , kind, is not jealous, is not bragging, is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly. Is not seeking its own, is not provoked, is not taking in account a wrong suffered,is not rejoicing in unrighteousness, rejoicing with truth a persons interpretation of it, is bearing, believing , hoping and enduring all things. Love never fails, but it is questionable if it has failed on this thread and from both sides of the debate.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Not necessarily...peter denied him. It was caused by a lack of faith and fear of death. So no, I don't see denying Him and not having faith in Him as necessarily two different things. But I would like to hear everyone's thoughts, including lasagna man.
Did Peter lack faith in God, or in his circumstance?
I think there is a huge difference there. Also note. Jesus did not ask him to repent. He knew peters heart.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, I agree. You used an example of sealing and unsealing leftovers to make a point. The charge that this was blasphemous is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Whether I agree with the point you were trying to make or not, I can follow your example. One man (Donne I think) compared the trinity to...a flea. He was not being blasphemous. He was using an everyday thing to highlight something spiritual. Jesus did that all of the time.
Do fleas eat lasagna...?
It was blasphemous. Because as was also shown, it is a false application, and belittles our God. His point was proven to be in error. And his example was proven to be weak.
And it also helps to show us why he has such a weak faith in God, if he has faith in God at all.
I am one that fervently insists that CHRIST recognized 7 types of Churches, that also represented 7 types of Christians, and all Seven Types can be found even Today. WHO ARE WE TO RECOGNIZE LESS. I will even stand up for the Catholics, as one of the Seven Types of Churches, and I have never been a Catholic. I can find the SAME DOCTRINAL STATEMENTS, that are located in a typical Baptist Doctrinal Statement, are in the Catholic Catechism.
What you may not have noticed, is we were not confronting denomination barriers, but rather those teaching a False Gospel, trying desperately to lead others astray.
Denominational Barriers usually are minor issues, that have little or NOTHING to do with SALVATION. However we believe Paul instructed us to take someone teaching a FALSE GOSPEL, very seriously:
1 Corinthians 16:21-22 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The greeting is in my own hand—Paul.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha.
Galatians 1:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
PAUL openly, and publicly confronted the teachers of FALSE GOSPELS, even naming names.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.
JUDE put it this way:
Jude 1:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Here is the proof that what they were trying to teach was a deceiving FALSE GOSPEL:
Galatians 5:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Who is this directed too? No one here teaches once we are saved we can sin all we want, or the world owes us anything.
Don;t you think it is about time you owned up and show all these people you have been attacking for months now where4 they say the things you claim they believe?
The law is in effect.
Without it how do we know what sin is. Paul pointed this out since sin is transgression of the law.
How can we sin if the law was done away with?
Mathew 5 NIV
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
So who wants to claim the law is not in effect??
I thought blaspheming the Holy Spirit was saying Jesus did his miracles by the power of the devil and not of God.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I guess you missed th parts in scripture where Jesus called the pharisees out. And called them names? Or when Paul called people out?
The biggest issue in this thread and in most threads in CC is a misunderstanding of what other people believe, and then a continual slander against people based on a blind idea of what people THINK they believe, instead of actally trying to stop for a minute, open ones eyes, and listen to them to see what they are actually saying.
And it is usually the same few people who do it over and over and over. Calling them out should be EVERYONES JOB, Just like Paul called peter out. But people seem to be afraid to call others out. And the longer people get away with it. The worse off the thread gets.. and the more powerful the people become, to continue their slanderous ways.. So at that point, discussion is fruitless.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Blasphemy of the HS is calling the HS a liar.
Or claiming something done by the HS was done by another (ie replacing the work of the HS with the work of Men)
Unless you are someone who has returned under a new nic, you were not here when that conversation took place. So I would not try to judge what actually went on. (Unless he tried to use that example again and I missed it)