Not By Works

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Stunnedbygrace said:
Maybe for some men it is more immediate. For others, like me, there is labor to more fully rest.

It's like Teresa said - like drawing up water by hand from a well versus a water wheel. She describes it as first laboring more and then later having the water just come to you. :)
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Sorry, I disagree.....the entrance into rest and the means of entry are consistently the same for all.......the entire nation of Israel were brought out of the Egypt by the same action of faith, applying the blood, the entire nation was brought to the promise land by the same faith and the entire nation was informed to enter by faith in the fact that God would drive out the inhabitants by his power.

Faith for one, faith for all and the end result is the same.
 
dcontroversal said:
I understand what you are saying here and yes love is the ultimate goal and a process of growth and maturity.....however....I have one issue and it is with the bolded.....I cannot get past the seemingly contradictory statement about the bolded above and what the following verse has to state...

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." Heb4:10
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The battle is over when we walk in Love: walking into Love;
We are still on the Journey, entering into God, There is a labour to enter into His rest, and put away our divided spirit. Divided within ourselves and from one another. "Love is the fulfilment of the Law." Against Love there is no Law.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

Hebrewa4:10
Into his rest.--That is, into God's rest.Hath ceased.--Rather, hath rested from his works as God did from His own (works). This verse is added to explain and justify the reference to a "sabbath" in Hebrews 4:9. Man's sabbath-rest begins when he enters into God's rest (Genesis 2:2); as that was the goal of the creative work, so to the people of God this rest is the goal of their life of "works."

The rest begins when we enter into God's rest; When Christ died on the cross to put away sin, it was forever, right. If there is labor to enter God's rest, doesn't that say Christ's work was not complete?

Question: are we still on the journey of entering into God's rest? I don't think so;
There is a labour to enter into His rest, How do you labor and rest at the same time; its like being in two paces at the same time, not possible.

Was this helpful, God bless.
 
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dcontroversal said:
I understand what you are saying here and yes love is the ultimate goal and a process of growth and maturity.....however....I have one issue and it is with the bolded.....I cannot get past the seemingly contradictory statement about the bolded above and what the following verse has to state...

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Click to expand...

To put it in tech terms; If my platoon Sargent say's platoon rest, do we then go for a 4 mile run in the sand, I don't think so. Rest=rest, not rest/work.
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
Maybe for some men it is more immediate. For others, like me, there is labor to more fully rest.

It's like Teresa said - like drawing up water by hand from a well versus a water wheel. She describes it as first laboring more and then later having the water just come to you. :)
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I think this matter of 'working' to enter into God's rest nails the difference very clearly between the two camps in this thread. One camp sees it as, "work to enter rest? How ridiculous." While the rest of us see it like the Bible says it:

"11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:11 NASB)


The diligence of obedience by which we enter into God's Rest definitely involves having the faith that works, which is the faith that justifies. But that should not shock anybody here since we are all in agreement that the faith that saves is the faith that works. We settled that matter pages ago.

Obviously we don't work to earn entrance into God's salvation rest. We work because we have God's salvation rest. We're all in agreement with this. Anybody who isn't working the work of God's Rest (see verse above before you cringe at that) isn't in God's rest, plain and simple.

I like the example given: Even though the water flows freely to us we still have to draw it out. That's the obedience of salvation, the obedience of God's Rest. That's working out your salvation. The person who takes false comfort in knowing the water flows freely to us in this New Covenant but thinks they do not have to do the work of drawing it out is deceiving themselves.
 
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TruthTalk said:
To put it in tech terms; If my platoon Sargent say's platoon rest, do we then go for a 4 mile run in the sand, I don't think so. Rest=rest, not rest/work.
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I agree...under the law men had to strive daily to meet God's requirement for acceptance.....with penalty and punishment for failure....and it was painfully obvious that none could reach and or maintain that goal....

Under and in Christ we rest in his completed work, righteousness, acceptance, positioning of grace with the penalty and punishment for failure (death) swallowed up with everlasting life and being dealt with as sons and daughters.........it is ALL his work and exactly why he gets ALL of the glory!
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
I know that's how what they are saying sounds to you. But they don't believe there is no need for change. They have just seen they don't change themselves and that God is doing it.

As for resting passivity, you will see that it becomes more passive after some of the struggles and skirmishes of growing trust are won. IT becomes more passive and yet prayer becomes more and more and more. You will see that eventually because you will live it.

I know it is sometimes nearly impossible to have conversation beyond going over the basics again and again with some men and this is because they truly believe you don't understand the basics, even when you do. And it is sometimes further hindered because their goal is a certain doctrine and nothing else really. But you can always find men who are where you are and who you can talk with and then you can sometimes find that rare man who may be past you in spiritual understanding but who remembers being there himself and so he doesn't fight with you but has good and productive conversation with you.
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I am not sure I am communicating the context. I am not saying who is saying this or that,
I am trying to point out there are approaches to life the come from the Lord and some that
come from the world.

We need to discern if we are just looking at things with an agenda to dismiss and ignore or are
actually listening, and wanting to change and move forward. The world is a place full of defence
and defeat, trying to get as much as you can before someone else snatches it away.

The Kingdom is about seeing what is, and using what one has to the best to help and serve others.
It is for the individuals themselves or ourselves to work out where we are.

Change is hard. Change is hard because we do not want to be defeated, and think change is going
backwards, rather than in Christ everything is a step forwards in grace and love.

We are called to do good works, to be the light shinning in the darkness. There is no other light than
His people, because God is the creator, and His people are the good news. It might be hard to accept
we are good news to the world, but the healing He has brought in us, is testimony of hope to many
many others.
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
Maybe for some men it is more immediate. For others, like me, there is labor to more fully rest.

It's like Teresa said - like drawing up water by hand from a well versus a water wheel. She describes it as first laboring more and then later having the water just come to you. :)
Click to expand...

I am always stunned by something Jesus said about Mary after she washed His feet with her
hair. Those who have been forgiven much give much, and those who have forgiven little give
little.

The response in the Kingdom is down to us, but it does vary and in Gods grace He builds up
all. So the struggles and issues do vary a lot, along with education, intelligence, gifting,
abilities etc. It is why we are a body, and why we need one another, because this is Gods
will and His way, that we work in love with each other, to bring glory to His name.
 
TruthTalk said:
How do you labor and rest at the same time; its like being in two paces at the same time, not possible.
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Very possible. How?

11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Obviously, the diligence of entering is obedience. This should not surprise you since we all agree that the faith that saves is the faith that works.

The difference between the old covenant working and the New Covenant working is our works are the result of our faith in Christ to save us, while the old covenant person work was performed in order to save oneself.

So, parade rest, start marching soldier of Christ.

Resting in Christ is seen it what it does.
 
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dcontroversal said:
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!...
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rightouse works should never be described as zero..

that completely takes away from God and scripture...

you could of most definately thought of a better way to put this..
 
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dcontroversal said:
Sorry, I disagree.....the entrance into rest and the means of entry are consistently the same for all.......the entire nation of Israel were brought out of the Egypt by the same action of faith, applying the blood, the entire nation was brought to the promise land by the same faith and the entire nation was informed to enter by faith in the fact that God would drive out the inhabitants by his power.

Faith for one, faith for all and the end result is the same.
Click to expand...

The first generation never entered the promise land and they did not enter into the land or into rest because of their unbelief...and they died in the wilderness because of that unbelief...and after they were applied the blood and were delivered....The only 2 of the first generation that entered in were Joshua and Caleb....it was the second generation that made it and entered in....Hebrews 3 and 4 tell us this and so does Numbers 32...
 
TruthTalk said:
The battle is over when we walk in Love: walking into Love;
We are still on the Journey, entering into God, There is a labour to enter into His rest, and put away our divided spirit. Divided within ourselves and from one another. "Love is the fulfilment of the Law." Against Love there is no Law.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

Hebrewa4:10
Into his rest.--That is, into God's rest.Hath ceased.--Rather, hath rested from his works as God did from His own (works). This verse is added to explain and justify the reference to a "sabbath" in Hebrews 4:9. Man's sabbath-rest begins when he enters into God's rest (Genesis 2:2); as that was the goal of the creative work, so to the people of God this rest is the goal of their life of "works."

The rest begins when we enter into God's rest; When Christ died on the cross to put away sin, it was forever, right. If there is labor to enter God's rest, doesn't that say Christ's work was not complete?

Question: are we still on the journey of entering into God's rest? I don't think so;
There is a labour to enter into His rest, How do you labor and rest at the same time; its like being in two paces at the same time, not possible.

Was this helpful, God bless.
Click to expand...

I think what SBG was staying is that even though she has entered into rest, she still has to struggle to place absolute 100% trust and faith into what God is doing in her life, post salvation...and I think that goes for just about everyone here...
 
JIMBO43 said:
rightouse works should never be described as zero..

that completely takes away from God and scripture...

you could of most definately thought of a better way to put this..
Click to expand...

I will say it again...see if you can understand context....both you and Phart.....

Our righteous works have ZERO, NADDA,NOTHING, NIL, ZIP, NOT ONE THING, NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.

You do understand ENGLISH right.......geesh!
 
Meggido said:
The first generation never entered the promise land and they did not enter into the land or into rest because of their unbelief...and they died in the wilderness because of that unbelief...and after they were applied the blood and were delivered....The only 2 of the first generation that entered in were Joshua and Caleb....it was the second generation that made it and entered in....Hebrews 3 and 4 tell us this and so does Numbers 32...
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Man, I know you can read better than that......did I say they entered? You should lose your attitude toward me and constantly berating everything I say, while picking it apart without regard for the words I used........like most workers for do...you put words in my mouth and or address something I DID NOT SAY!
 
[video=youtube;YuMh_ept-Js]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMh_ept-Js[/video]

Crown Him With Many Crowns
​

Cainology: God's Grace plus my wonderful works. Again a simple example; put a teaspoon full of dirt into a large glass of pure drinking water (God's Grace), and you have muddied up the whole glass of water, it is good for nothin' but to toss it down the drain.

True Gospel, True Assurance, Beautiful SongFull Text

1 Crown him with many crowns,
the Lamb upon his throne.
Hark! how the heavenly anthem drowns
all music but its own.
Awake, my soul, and sing
of him who died for thee,
and hail him as thy matchless king
through all eternity.


2 Crown him the Lord of life,
who triumphed o'er the grave,
and rose victorious in the strife
for those he came to save;
his glories now we sing
who died and rose on high,
who died eternal life to bring,
and lives that death may die.



3 Crown him the Lord of love;
behold his hands and side,
rich wounds, yet visible above,
in beauty glorified;
no angels in the sky
can fully bear that sight,
but downward bends their burning eye
at mysteries so bright.


4 Crown him the Lord of years,
the potentate of time,
creator of the rolling spheres,
ineffably sublime.
All hail, Redeemer, hail!
for thou hast died for me;
thy praise shall never, never fail
throughout eternity.

Attribute: https://hymnary.org/text/crown_him_with_many_crowns
 
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The Israelites died in the wilderness and failed to enter into the promised land. ( the promised land BTW is not going to heaven as there will be no giants in heaven to fight - it's a picture of living in Christ's life here on this earth ).

They did not enter into the promised land because of their unbelief ( some translations have that word as disobedience ).

Moses did not enter into the promised land as well because of his disobedience - yet Jesus was shown talking with him and Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses is with the Lord now.

Moses died in the wilderness with all those other Israelites - all that died in the wilderness had different forms of unbelief/disobedience which led for them not entering into the promised land - which to us is a picture of the life of Christ being manifested in us in this earth now.

It's interesting to note that no one died nor was God angry with any of them that came out of Egypt until the Law was brought forth which the people asked for of Moses. After that - that's when they started to die.

Before that they were in grace based on Abraham's covenant and no one was harmed or died and everything was supplied by the Lord for them.

We need to stop this foolishness about people that are "in Christ" losing salvation for going to be with the Lord and start preaching Christ to people so that they can avoid the pit-falls of this life and walk in the inheritance that is theirs in Christ.

We need to be teaching the grace and love of Christ so that people can be built up in Him and walk in freedom in this present world. God is not looking for ways to keep people away from Him which is why Jesus died for us and took away the sin of the world.

He loves us dearly and wants us to be with Him and has provided everything we need and its through belief in Christ alone.

Let's preach the gospel for in "it" is the power of God for salvation. In "it" the righteousness of God is revealed and the righteous shall live by faith to faith. ( not our own righteous doing although we will do good works by His life in us manifesting our as we grow in Him ) We need to hear the gospel every day as Christians in order to grow up in Him.

And there is a time for warning and rebuke for those that are not relying on Jesus for everything and how we believe will influence the quality of life we have here on this earth.

Some will die prematurely and will not be partakers of the quality of life that is in Christ to those who believe. The answer to unbelief is to preach the gospel of the grace of Christ.

Most people have not probably even heard the real gospel yet so they don't know how to properly life in the true Christian life - which is completely dependent on Christ's finished work.
 
dcontroversal said:
Me too......as a guitar player.....I enjoy and excellent guitar "pickin"........
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Amazing guitar pickin' by David Grier for dcontra and anyone else who appreciates
fine gitar pickin.'

[video=youtube;oZvfwhDX2ec]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZvfwhDX2ec&list=RDn7eFB2b_Tmk&index=4[/video]
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
That would be wonderful! Based on what you said that he said, I would gladly listen to him!

No, I don't work with addicts. I repair and faux paint furniture. At least recently I do!:D I just kind of fell into it somehow...
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Whats faux painting?

Here you go

Hope Church Winchester - A church in the heart of the city

Steve Chick is the lead elder, John Groves and Jon Lloyd are full time elders.
John Groves worked with Terry Virgo in establishing what is/was called New Frontiers International.

I work closely with Jon Lloyd.

Enjoy exploring what our church is about.

Bill
 
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