Not By Works

[Meggido]

Do we become righteous because Jesus give us His righteousness or are we seen as righteous because Jesus is our advocate before the Father?

Is Justification imparted or imputed?

I think this answer depends on how you define the intercession Jesus does on our behalf...

 

[Meggido]

If we have put on Christ's righteousness, Jesus would not need to stand between us and God because we would be Perfectly righteous.

If Jesus is in intercession before Father, pleading for our Righteousness......then 2 Cor 5.21, Phil 3.7-11 and Romans 5.12-21 are lies...

 

[Meggido]

I never said this. I'm confused as to why you assumed I did? I include our dialogue above.

Obviously the world is made up of believers and non believers... wheat and tares.

BUT we were specifically discussing the falling away (highlighted in red). That is the topic. I was saying that there are tares that exist within the church buildings. A mix of believers and non believers in them. Not all are believers as some might wrongfully assume.

The ones that fall away are the tares who were never saved to begin with. The book of Jude confirms this also, as well as the scripture above.

Maybe this is why some believe that the apostates are believers?..... because they don't believe there are any tares within the church buildings, so they assume it's believers that fall away. The scriptures say otherwise.

we agree to disagree....

 

[garee]

I guess now this is similar to the thief on the cross...Just believe...xox...

Yes as he gives you his faith (Christ's) that comes from hearing Him through the scriptures called the same spirit of faith....not of our own selves after the the imaginations of our hearts.

One faith, one Spirit, one baptism of the Holy Spirit, as a work of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 4:13 We having the same "spirit of faith", according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;


2Corinthians 12:18 I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Paul inspired as a prophet, a spiritul gift of God, speaks of that same mutual Spirit of Christ our teacher comforter and guide that brings the spiritual gifts to both the hearer and the speaker (prophet ). His gifts are not for self edification.

Rom 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the "mutual faith" both of you and me.

That faith I offer is of Christ who comforts us.

 

[Meggido]

With the right view of repentance you can see repentance = Kingdom.

Repent means to turn toward/change your mind.
Kingdom is following/agreeing with the King.

Jesus is saying stop being lead astray on your own and turn toward the true King.

So are you saying that repentance is mere mental assent and a one time event? Is changing your mind renewing your mind?
repentance is a process, not a one time event....

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace...I was just sitting here myself after reading this and made up a story in my head ...I was thinking, What is someone had found out about Christ being our Savior, gave their life to Jesus, went home with no understanding of the gospels and never had a chance to learn from Scripture because he died that night, and then this comes to mind, Jesus says to" just believe"...That`s what my imaginary person done, he just believed, he had a tiny mustard seed of faith...This is a story in my head, but surely it must be true in places all over, I do know no one likes things from the top of peoples head, but do you understand my tale...xox...

That is a great story. Right believing in Christ will produce right thinking which will produce right living towards God and others.

But we must have the firm foundation of Christ's work as our basis for all things before we can build properly.

We are saved by grace through faith in Him alone and as we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6

 

[Desertsrose]

If you think about it DRose, aren't we all bad soil until conversion? All have sinned and come short of His glory. We all are tainted by the fall, born in Adam and separated from God.

He draws us and I do believe in predestination because He knows the end from the beginning of each of our lives. We are born in time, not knowing the future. He is outside of time and of eternity. He knows His own. And goes after us.

Hi Stones,

I don't think so.

The sower parable isn't about the condition of our nature to sin. It's not talking about there's no one righteous.

It's talking about those who have a pliable heart that will receive the (seed) truth of the gospel to completion. We're saved, we're being saved and we will be saved. Those who endure in the faith are the true believers in the gospel and therefore the good soil. The good soil is the only soil that brings forth fruit, 30 60 100 fold.

I believe the seed is the truth of the gospel, the word of God. Jesus called it the message of the kingdom.

1 Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Meggido]

so you believe in eternal security? That once a person is savd by true repentance and true faith in th living God, who will NEVER let you down, but only promised see to continue to grace your faith, and promised to continue to sanctify you until the day of Christ, and give you absolutely no reason t stop having faith is saved forever, that nothing h or she does from hat point forward will change that fact?

Thank you, and know I am just stating my view, not attacking anyone, I am asking honest questions here.

Eternal security is granted as long as I stay in belief...I do not work for salvation, and I do not believe once I am saved God removes my free choice and I am a hostage to him...if I decide to stop believing in his promises, I am leaving him and the gift...

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi EG...I know my salvation is not earned by works, it`s a free gift from God...From what i understand, we will all be given different rewards for how we walked to His calling...And Paul did say we must run our race, we must be diligent and keep our eyes on Christ...xox...

Hi Rosemary,

I also believe that Paul was referring to eternal life as the greatest prize. A race one competes in gets a perishable wreath which can't compare the the prize we receive when we run the race well.

Paul uses the athlete as an example as to how we are to run the race set before us. The athlete disciplines himself and trains himself to run so as to win the race.

So Paul is bringing his body under self control so as to not beat the air as a boxer, but instead to hit it's target.

He's telling us to train ourselves to continue on in the race so as to reach the finish line which is eternal life. I see it as an encouragement to keep on keeping on. Don't give up.

Believers during this time were beaten and tortured and imprisoned. They lived a very hard and difficult life. Some of us have it so easy in comparison. But I know that others in this world suffer for their faith and are being tortured and imprisoned. I think it's an encouragement that this race is the ultimate race and a worthy race.

What can be better than the prize of the high calling in Christ. In this race we will not perish, it will all be worth it because we will attain to eternal life and what a glorious prize that will be.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Philippians 3:12-14
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You can desire it all you want, that is not a reward, that is a gft. You can not earn your way to heaven, I thought the whole argument was that you were not teaching a gospel of works trying to earn salvation? Now you say this. I am saddened.

I can't help it, I don't want any prize but to be with Him. You can have my prizes and hats. I hereby bequeath them to you. Let everyone note that Jennie has bequeathed her prizes and hats to EG! I will not be caring about them but only want to be with Him!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ohhhhhh i thought you were 7seas new account...

she left

lol, it is 7seas, But they sort of act alike, thats why I (yes I am the one she said thought that) Asked her if she was fran.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Rosemary,

I also believe that Paul was referring to eternal life as the greatest prize. A race one competes in gets a perishable wreath which can't compare the the prize we receive when we run the race well.

Paul uses the athlete as an example as to how we are to run the race set before us. The athlete disciplines himself and trains himself to run so as to win the race.

So Paul is bringing his body under self control so as to not beat the air as a boxer, but instead to hit it's target.

He's telling us to train ourselves to continue on in the race so as to reach the finish line which is eternal life. I see it as an encouragement to keep on keeping on. Don't give up.

Believers during this time were beaten and tortured and imprisoned. They lived a very hard and difficult life. Some of us have it so easy in comparison. But I know that others in this world suffer for their faith and are being tortured and imprisoned. I think it's an encouragement that this race is the ultimate race and a worthy race.

What can be better than the prize of the high calling in Christ. In this race we will not perish, it will all be worth it because we will attain to eternal life and what a glorious prize that will be.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Philippians 3:12-14
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Covered in those wonderful goosebumps when He comes and shares a meal with me. Goosebumps on TOP of goosebumps.

 

[Meggido]

I see bro,

but to me Gid never promised that he would stop doing what he started.

when I read God,'s promises I see this...

he said he will complete it, not that he might
he said h has perfected forever, not that at some point in the future if you continue use to believe, he may perfect you forever,
he said he will never let you go, not that he will never let you go only if you continue to hold on in faith.
he said he gave you eternal life, not that he might give you eternal life, and he called it eternal, not conditional for a reason, it is not some religious thing that can be gained and lost, it is an actual thing we hav (even john said we have it, and knowing this is the bases of our continue faith)

i can fo go on and on bro, my faith is in Goda promises, not in my ability to keep trusting him. That to me would b placing faith in myself and my ability, not God, and that to m, is no security at all,

We believe what you have stated here, where we swerve away from agreement is this:

We believe, if you stop doing what you described above, which is believing/trusting/abiding in him and what he has done, then we have made a choice to fall away...God and his promises are still there, they never went anywhere, we took the hike...we made an intentional, deliberate decision...God will never take free choice away from us...he cannot not, it is against his nature...we also do not believe this is a work...We believe that believing/trusting/abiding in him is the rest he speaks about in what Jesus did for us through the free gift...we believe our believing/trusting/abiding in him produces good works, not to maintain salvation, but to advance the kingdom...

You have never really said everything you believe so if I get this wrong, correct it...I am not saying you believe this, but this what it seems to be...this is not what I am saying or believing IT to be...

It seems you and others believe... You are believing/trusting/abiding in him and what he has done, you are incapable of making the choice to fall away, because God removes your free choice or you were elected before the world began. The complete obligation for keeping you is on God.....If you do backslide or stop your personal believing/trusting/abiding and even deny him, all is well because the gift of saving faith is God and Jesus faith, not your personal faith...

Again, I am not saying this is what you or others believe...It is just what seems to be what is being said...If I got it wrong, no offense meant, just help us out an either re-explain or otherwise...

 

[Zi]

When everyone has and you don't, u'll be like Esau?

I can't help it, I don't want any prize but to be with Him. You can have my prizes and hats. I hereby bequeath them to you. Let everyone note that Jennie has bequeathed her prizes and hats to EG! I will not be caring about them but only want to be with Him!

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi Rosemary,

I also believe that Paul was referring to eternal life as the greatest prize. A race one competes in gets a perishable wreath which can't compare the the prize we receive when we run the race well.

Paul uses the athlete as an example as to how we are to run the race set before us. The athlete disciplines himself and trains himself to run so as to win the race.

So Paul is bringing his body under self control so as to not beat the air as a boxer, but instead to hit it's target.

He's telling us to train ourselves to continue on in the race so as to reach the finish line which is eternal life. I see it as an encouragement to keep on keeping on. Don't give up.

Believers during this time were beaten and tortured and imprisoned. They lived a very hard and difficult life. Some of us have it so easy in comparison. But I know that others in this world suffer for their faith and are being tortured and imprisoned. I think it's an encouragement that this race is the ultimate race and a worthy race.

What can be better than the prize of the high calling in Christ. In this race we will not perish, it will all be worth it because we will attain to eternal life and what a glorious prize that will be.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Philippians 3:12-14
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Hi DR...Yes i agree...I was going to write that at the end of my post the most important part i believe...My thought was snatched...xox...

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul is very clearly referring to "his ministry" in 1 Cor. 9 when you look at it in context.

It is not for "obtaining eternal life" - Christ already has done that for us in Heb. 9:12

Paul is describing what he does so that he is not disqualified from sharing the gospel which is his ministry.

1 Corinthians 9:18-27 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

[SUP]25[/SUP] Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;

[SUP]27[/SUP] but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.




The Father has "qualified us because of Christ " - we don't "qualify ourselves". That is a works-based false gospel.

Colossians 1:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternal security is granted as long as I stay in belief...I do not work for salvation, and I do not believe once I am saved God removes my free choice and I am a hostage to him...if I decide to stop believing in his promises, I am leaving him and the gift...

You have too many I's in here to claim your not working for salvation.

If you trusted God to save you, there would be no I's in the equation.

I know you may think you are not trying to earn it, But I do not see it that way because of this reason. You still have control of a gift of God. That means in the en, you can boast off earning your reward for stying in faith n not falling away.

I believe God uses the words boast for a reason, that way we can test.

is there any way we can take credit for our salvation.

Me, I trust God and his work, and I trust him to do as he promised. I am not working hard to make sure my faith remains and is not lost. I m trusting God to grow my faith as he promised he would and he has yet to fail me, or give me a reason to fall back. and stop trusting him for salvation, or thinking i do not need saved.

Others, they trust God to save them, then have to trust in themselves to maintain that salvation. Whatever you do to maintain that salvation, that i where boasting come in.

Again, we are talking about faith concerning salvation, not faith concerning areas off our live, I can lack and even lose faith in certain areas, But salvation is different.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can't help it, I don't want any prize but to be with Him. You can have my prizes and hats. I hereby bequeath them to you. Let everyone note that Jennie has bequeathed her prizes and hats to EG! I will not be caring about them but only want to be with Him!

If your looking for being with him as prize. and working hard to get it, You will lose out. because you can not work hard enough to earn that, it must be paid for by someone who can pay the debt so you can have it

I love you sis, But please. do not tell me your not trying to work for it, when you just placed it as your highest goal your working for.

I do not care about any rewards, like abraham, he looked forward to his reality (not reward) arriving, and paul, who said to be absent was to be present.

Neither of these men worked for their reward, they looked forward/or back in pauls case, to their redeemer, Who GAVE them the gift. which one day will be fulfilled.

 

[TruthTalk]

To put on the righteousness of Christ is the language of Scripture. We are covered by the blood of His perfect sacrifice which reconciles us to God, and Jesus is our advocate. He is also God.

Hi Magenta; I wish to make an apology to you and everybody that knows me on this thread. I made a statement to a poster on this thread that I was a missionary with stage 4 prostate cancer. That was a false and misleading statement to all of you that I care about on this forum. I do have stage 4 prostate cancer but I am not a missionary. When I am wrong I like to openly admit that I was wrong. If it was something that was done in public I believe it should be addressed in a public form. Thank you for your kind consideration and I really do appreciate being a small part of everybody's life here at Christianchat.com. So again please forgive me and God bless all of you.

 

[Grace777x70]

Philippians 3:12-14 is not about "obtaining eternal redemption". Look at it "in context".

Philippians 3:8-16 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ
,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

[SUP]11 [/SUP] in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

[SUP]16 [/SUP] however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Paul is saying that he has not yet attained to express what Christ is in him - in knowing Him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings - being conformed unto his death.

Paul is talking about the renewal of the mind to the things that Christ has done - like we have died with Christ on the cross and we too were raised up in His resurrection.

Paul has not been made perfect in expressing these truths in his life yet.

This is not for "obtaining eternal salvation". Paul is talking about expressing all that Christ is in His resurrection and to know Christ Himself and what He has already accomplished for us.

Paul goes on to say "As many of you that are perfect or mature in this understanding to maintain this same attitude and if not - God will reveal it to you."

Hebrews 9:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.