I want to reiterate that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is boiled down to unbelief in the work of Christ as from God and the power of God....one who will not believe cannot be forgiven.....end of story!
Not By Works
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Just like the dude who would not even lift his eyes to heaven....unworthy of the least of God's mercies.......
Deserve does not align with grace........especially since none are good no not one....and all were unprofitable.......!
Here is a great teaching that speaks of ship-wrecked faith. I like to use this website from time to time as it gives a grace-based / finished work of Christ view of the scriptures and it has a place at the bottom of the teaching where people can ask questions. I often learn good things in this section as well.
I realize this will not influence those who already believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell but hopefully others reading the thread will see the goodness and grace of God for us that is in Christ's perfect work on our behalf.
Quote:
Shipwrecked Faith
“Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences?
Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought
– as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme. I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.)
This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable.
That way lies disaster and shipwreck. The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Unquote:
Here is the link to the article where you can view the questions at the bottom if interested. We have a great salvation in our Lord. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. This knowledge will bring the proper nutrients for us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/...wrecked-faith/
Thank you Grace777, appriceate the link as well;
Quote from Grace777:
"In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on." - Agreed
I have always loved a good sea adventure - God's speed!
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I see many here talk big about grace and faith and still view themselves as unworthy of it all......sounds real humble....but it speaks to not knowing what grace gave you....I am saying this as delicate as I can...
You love people to feed you....like I said to you some time ago...
First and second time shame on me, third time shame on you....
feed yourself this time...
James 1.17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Matt 7.9-11
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? [SUP]11 [/SUP]If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Luke 11.9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? [SUP]12 [/SUP]Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? [SUP]13 [/SUP]If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
Sounds to me that we are deserving of every good and perfect gift....do you see it now...
You are in Thursday already
Yes, I knew you were away and on a different timetable than normal
I hope you are enjoying your vacation!
Yeah 15 hours ahead of Central Time Zone....it is now 935 AM Thursday...thanks...
Also, there are none righteous, no not one besides Jesus. We find our worth in Him
2 cor 5.21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Phil 3.7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Romans 5.12-21
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— [SUP]13 [/SUP]for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If you view yourself as unrighteous when the above passage say otherwise, you will view his grace and work on your behalf as unworthy and that you do not deserve it...
God wants to save us ....it was his plan....to say different means you frustrate grace....and Christ died in vain...
You do a lot of banging and clanging and and bragging about how deep and spiritual you are but I see no Scripture to back your stance, in fact you refuse to explain yourself because you are wrong and you know it; your stance is opinion only and contrary to Scripture at that. It is not food.
and many are waiting for you to stop your position of silence and answer my questions...
Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he SUFFERRED and, once made PERFECT, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION for all who OBEY him.
Romans 8:7-9 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not SUBMIT to God’s law, NOR CAN IT DO SO. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And IF ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRIST.
John 14:15-24 “If you love me, you will OBEY what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the SPIRIT OF TRUTH. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives WITH you and will be IN you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my COMMANDS and OBEYS them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will OBEY my TEACHING. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE ME WILL NOT OBEY MY TEACHING. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Matthew 19:16-30 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “TEACHER, WHAT GOOD THING MUST I DO TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be PERFECT, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but WITH God all things are possible.” Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and WILL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
John 12:47-50 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one WHO REJECTS ME AND DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Romans 8:7-9 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not SUBMIT to God’s law, NOR CAN IT DO SO. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And IF ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRIST.
John 14:15-24 “If you love me, you will OBEY what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the SPIRIT OF TRUTH. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives WITH you and will be IN you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my COMMANDS and OBEYS them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will OBEY my TEACHING. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE ME WILL NOT OBEY MY TEACHING. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Matthew 19:16-30 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “TEACHER, WHAT GOOD THING MUST I DO TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be PERFECT, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but WITH God all things are possible.” Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and WILL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
John 12:47-50 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one WHO REJECTS ME AND DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Everything you have posted points to the worthiness of Christ.
We are clothed in HIS righteousness.
You asked this under a meme of D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones: "He doesn't teach the new creation man Preacher?"
If you were referring to him, I am not sure how you got that question after his quote on this meme:
Anyone who thinks God loved us because we deserved to be loved doesn't have a clue as to the Gospel, Scriptures or the Godhead.
Yes, if I'm not mistaken, your very last post talked about the verses of the pharisee and sinner praying. You referenced a bible verse there...makes me want to go back and look further back because I could swear you almost never post without discussing some verse...even if it is the same verse over and over again!
You asked this under a meme of D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones: "He doesn't teach the new creation man Preacher?"
If you were referring to him, I am not sure how you got that question after his quote on this meme:Maybe re-posting this will refresh your memory as to your question?
Hey p4t,
How is it you have started to argue with the grace no matter what group?
You claimed you thought the free ticket idea was not your belief?
Maybe you do not really stick to what you claim to believe but rather troll around.
A typical troll plays both sides against each other for the joke of it.
How long did you think you could keep this up, my friend?
You do not know what game you are really in, but there is one who does.
Will you answer to Him? Or is this just a joke, because the joke will be on
you if you do not come round.
understanding position before conversion has nothing to do with what I am talking about...