N
NoNameMcgee
Guest
i feel like most the disputes here are semantics
or fruitless personal arguments ...
(most)
Not By Works
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i feel like most the disputes here are semantics
or fruitless personal arguments ...
(most)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Originally Posted by loveme1
According to the High Priest there is work to be done.. so ignore the title of this thread and adhere to your Master.
The gift is Everlasting life rewarded based on your works.
I do not have to think, I have it written in your own words.
You believe that god said the gift for your works is eternal life.
God said no such thing, He said the penalty of sin is death, THE GIFT is ETERNAL LIFE, in CHRIST JESUS.
Jesus himself said whoever has faith HAS eternal life, and will not come into condemnation but has passed from life to death.
No works involved.
I am trying to get you to see what jesus really said, whether you believe me or not is up to you.
thinkkk about it,
God said if you want to be blessed as his child
You must give up
Your life
Your will
Your freedom from persecution, pain and suffering
Your identity
and so much more
In revelation, He said a truth, for those who have done these things, what is their reward? Eternal life. Not because they earned it, But because they had faith in God and lived out that faith.
edit, even though they lived out their faith, THEY STILL WERE NOT PERFECT. they Still fell short of Gods glory, and earned eternal death, NOT ETERNAL LIFE!
Last edited by a moderator:
He presents it properly but it doesn't suit You.
Jesus said what He had to say.
He didn't worry about semantics.
So now what you're saying is that we have to believe AND SAY everything exactly according to Your
Satisfaction or one is wrong.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
When you are ready to simply proclaim that works are required by Jesus as a result of believing in Him..
Then you will be proclaiming what true Christianity is.
To keep any possible slander and malice down to a minimum - I will repeat what I believe about "good works" for at the very least the 20th time. I see that people are "still" mis-representing what is being said.
I have come to accept this will continue but perhaps this will help new viewers of the thread to grow in their dependence on Christ in them for life and living. He is our life! Col. 3:3.
Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our spiritual warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
Notice that both groups were "building the house."
I have come to accept this will continue but perhaps this will help new viewers of the thread to grow in their dependence on Christ in them for life and living. He is our life! Col. 3:3.
Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our spiritual warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
Notice that both groups were "building the house."
Dear,
Did you happen to see that loooong list of works verses that I posted?
No?
Funny.Uncomfortable, isn't it.?
Why does it take sooooooo many words just to say this...
"Once we become born again and know God, He will expect us to obey Him".
See.
One sentence.
Christianity is so simple.
No need to make it complicated.
posting verses without context, claiming that believing actually means doing good works, ( a true believer will do good works, but that is a RESULT of a relationship with Christ, not a cause), refusing to name sources of info that you claim to exist, that is very uncomfortable. for you.
it is a rabbit hole that traps you by your own words. so , when you get corrected ( you have been, many times ) you can't receive it, because your own words trap you. pretty deep, huh?
The heavenly dynamic behind the way we are actually transformed is by beholding the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror and the Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold Christ and us in Him as one in union with Him forever. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
We participate in this with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. We can rest in this truth. Phil. 2:13
When we talk about transformation or the way that Christ is manifested in our life or the way we bear fruit or good works - it is really a reference to the outward manifestation of what is already true inwardly
- in the new creation in Christ - the new man of the heart - cleansed, righteous and holy and in union with Christ as one spirit forever. 1 Cor. 6:17
Christ being manifested through us is the fruit of a tree that "already exists within us."
I firmly believe that if we feed Christians the nutrients of the love and grace of God in Christ's finished work for us - we will walk in the good works that God has already prepared for us to walk in. Eph. 2:10
Good works do not produce life or salvation nor do they keep us saved. That is an anti-Christ belief system that nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to operate in this life by the spirit and not walk after the flesh.
Christ alone is our Savior. Through His blood we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins. Good works are simply the fruit of Him being manifested as we rely on Him alone.
It will be the Lord Himself working in and through us to show the love and grace our Father and loving Lord has for others in the world as well as our brethren that are now in Christ with us.
Let's feed Christians the love and grace of our loving Father and they will grow and in this growing - the fruit of His life will manifest and the good works that are manifested will be birthed from Him. These will be the gold, silver and precious gems that are created.
We participate in this with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. We can rest in this truth. Phil. 2:13
When we talk about transformation or the way that Christ is manifested in our life or the way we bear fruit or good works - it is really a reference to the outward manifestation of what is already true inwardly
- in the new creation in Christ - the new man of the heart - cleansed, righteous and holy and in union with Christ as one spirit forever. 1 Cor. 6:17
Christ being manifested through us is the fruit of a tree that "already exists within us."
I firmly believe that if we feed Christians the nutrients of the love and grace of God in Christ's finished work for us - we will walk in the good works that God has already prepared for us to walk in. Eph. 2:10
Good works do not produce life or salvation nor do they keep us saved. That is an anti-Christ belief system that nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to operate in this life by the spirit and not walk after the flesh.
Christ alone is our Savior. Through His blood we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins. Good works are simply the fruit of Him being manifested as we rely on Him alone.
It will be the Lord Himself working in and through us to show the love and grace our Father and loving Lord has for others in the world as well as our brethren that are now in Christ with us.
Let's feed Christians the love and grace of our loving Father and they will grow and in this growing - the fruit of His life will manifest and the good works that are manifested will be birthed from Him. These will be the gold, silver and precious gems that are created.
Grace is not important to those who work...
what say you Franc.... is Grace to be appreciated or exploited? Did works bring you Faith?
Or was it by the Grace of GOD you were saved unto good works?
I was blind and did not see and lost but not found
I witness of GOD's Grace that made me see and be found.
I would be still Earning wages from my sin which is death... if not for the Love and Mercy bestowed upon me..
I'm not saved by works..... I'm saved by grace through faith.
The definition of through:
preposition1.in at one end, side, or surface and out at the other:to pass through a tunnel; We drove through Denver without stopping.Sun came through the window.
2.past; beyond:to go through a stop sign without stopping.
3.from one to the other of; between or among the individual membersor parts of:to swing through the trees; This book has passed through manyhands.
4.over the surface of, by way of, or within the limits or medium of:to travel through a country; to fly through the air.
5.during the whole period of; throughout:They worked through the night.
6.having reached the end of; done with:to be through one's work.
7.to and including:from 1900 through 1950.
adverb11.in at one end, side, or surface and out at the other:to push a needle through; just passing through.12.all the way; along the whole distance:This train goes through to Boston.
13.throughout:soaking wet through.
14.from the beginning to the end:to read a letter through.
15.to the end:to carry a matter through.
16.to a favorable or successful conclusion:He barely managed to pull through.
adjective17.having completed an action, process, etc.; finished:Please be still until I'm through. When will you be through withschool?
18.at the end of all relations or dealings:My sister insists she's through with selfish friends.
19.passing or extending from one end, side, or surface to the other:a through wound coming left to right and out the other side.
20.traveling or moving to a destination without changing of trains,planes, etc.:a through flight.
21.(of a road, route, way, course, etc., or of a ticket, routing order, etc.)admitting continuous or direct passage; having no interruption,obstruction, or hindrance:a through highway; through ticket.
22.(of a bridge truss) having a deck or decks within the depth of thestructure.Compare deck (def 16).
23.of no further use or value; washed-up:Critics say he's through as a writer.
Idioms24.through and through,
- through the whole extent of; thoroughly:cold through and through.
- from beginning to end; in all respects:an aristocrat through and through.
As you can see by the majority of the definition, it's from the beginning to the end. The just lives by faith.
There's only one meaning for that we live our entire life by faith.
What happens when we stop that practice?
Dead faith cannot secure a living salvation, period.
This is why the Bible says this:
Hebrews 10
38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Living faith, given by God, is active in the christian's life, & necessary to keep our salvation, because the just can only live by faith.
I hope that helps.
It's not semantics J.
You're filled with the spirit ....
Some here seek to totally distort the word of God.
Not while I can type and this thread is open.
God will not be made a fool of .
Oh my you have really worked that out well..
So you agree that the reward is eternal life because they had faith in GOD and lived out that Faith? So as long as you avoid the word work... but give a list of to do to show that Faith is evident you are not proposing work?
Seriously... The Messiah used the word work and reward but I'm not allowed to repeat this?
Amen.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Nothing we could do could ever save us because we're born in sin and God cannot be in the presence of sin.
Once we join the family of God He does expect us to obey Him.
And why wouldn't we after all He did for us?
I, for one, am happy to say that I do my best to obey.
I believe this is what Jesus wants and is a good tetimony for us to state this.
Despite the fact you are ignorant to what out darkness really is[it is not hell or the lake of fire] you have just stated you do not believe what Jesus was saying in this parable...The one that buried his talent was a servant , not an unbeliever.......
A new name we will give you fits......truth twister....
I agree...and it is vitally important to not to fall for the "baiting" too. It only invites us to be in strife and division. It's from the flesh. If we don't interact with those that continue to exhibit foul behavior - then it'll not continue.
We can post what we believe - leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
who is avoiding the word work? Not me That is you all continuing to falsly accuse me, I have never discounted works.
As I said, What I discount is that works save us, in any shape or form, nor do they maintain salvation as Fran wants to try to suggest.
What do I believe.
Those of faith WILL OBEY GOD
Those of faith OBEY His command
Those of faith do work
Those of faith will not be perfect. but they will not live as they did before they become a person of true living faith.
Living faith does not fail, it works, it does not fade away, Noah had faith for over 100 years. because his faith was real. Abraham had faith before he saw Gods promises come true, because he had a living faith. Daniel had faith while being a slave to babylon, knowing he would never return to his homeland. because he had a living faith.
one must ask themselves. If we (people like me) believe living faiht works, then why do people like you keep attacking us as people who hate work?
Matthew 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
take your inheritance.... the Kingdom..... eternal life...
What say you all then.. did those on the right recieve inheritance based on good works? Is it not the King deciding who gets eternal life by works according to the King?
Did any reply that the King is their righteousness and nothing they do matters?
Anyone here shouting Grace at the King?
To be The Kings people and recieve inheritance these people had to do good works.
So the King overcame and Had the right to give eternal life to those who did His work...
what a teaching to learn from.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
take your inheritance.... the Kingdom..... eternal life...
What say you all then.. did those on the right recieve inheritance based on good works? Is it not the King deciding who gets eternal life by works according to the King?
Did any reply that the King is their righteousness and nothing they do matters?
Anyone here shouting Grace at the King?
To be The Kings people and recieve inheritance these people had to do good works.
So the King overcame and Had the right to give eternal life to those who did His work...
what a teaching to learn from.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
They where given the right to the inheritance because they believed in his name. John says we were giiven that right because
1. we received him
2. We believed in his name (trusted him)
No work was involved.
We received the inheritance because we heard the word of truth the gospel of our salvation, and entrusted our life to it (eph 1: 13- 14)
Of course, Since we were saved, Since we were adopted. Since we were made (not make ourselves) children of God, We also obeyed him, because we loved him.
I would recommend we try not to take the cart before the horse. Thats dangerous.
edit how do we overcome?
1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
It is our faith, it is our new birth that causes us to overcome, not our work. or our will.