Not By Works
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I expect we all do something for God. But Truth Talks is examining what lies BEHIND our doing. Christ is the Saviour not us. And our salvation is ALL of grace. We work BECAUSE He has saved us. We live out what He has worked in.
But an atheist can do that, and yet is lost. It is good but it does not mean we are saved. We still have to work out the doctrine. We are utterly sinful, and yet are freely justified in Christ. That alone will save us,
No problem dear Brother,
I've been told here on this thread that God is insulted by our self-righteous good works.
(so now I'm a bit paranoid!!)
Hi Oldthennew, tell me if I am miss informed. Yes we are saved, "unto good works", but our gratitude and conversations should be about Jesus and the cross. Apostle Paul always said if I boast about anything let it be about the Cross of Jesus. "Nothing in my hands do I bring only to the cross do I cling." as the song repeats. When we enter heaven the saints will cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus.
Rev.4:10.
Our Pastor told the congregation one morning that a beloved member had passed away last night. He said most will not remember her because she wished to do her service to God without being known. He said although nobody new about it, she would bring baskets of cookies and treats to the hospital with permission and hand them out to sick people and pray for them if they wanted. He said she always requested to work behind the scene at the church building - out of the lime light. Incredibly the Pastor said she had been a member of our church for forty years.
Here is a poem I cherish about God's unchanging heart towards you and I.
"Morning Thoughts"
Written by: Octavius Winslow
The immutability of God forms a stable foundation Written by: Octavius Winslow
of comfort for the believing soul. Mutability marks
everything outside of God. Look . . .
into the church,
into the world,
into our families,
into ourselves,
what innumerable changes do we see on every hand!
A week, one short day, what alterations does it
produce! Yet, in the midst of it all, to repose calmly
on the unchangeableness, the faithfulness of God.
To know that no alterations of time, no earthly changes,
affect His faithfulness to His people. And more than this;
no changes in them, no unfaithfulness of theirs, causes
the slightest change in God. Once a Father, always a
Father; once a Friend, always a Friend.
His providences may change, His heart cannot.
He is a God of unchangeable love. Peace then, tried
believer! Are you passing now through the deep waters?
Who kept you from sinking when wading through the last?
Who brought you through the last fire?
Who supported you under the last cross?
Who delivered you out of the last temptation?
Was it not God, your faithful, unchangeable God?
This God, then, is your God now, and your God forever
and ever! And He will be your guide even unto death!
"His providence's may change, His heart cannot"
Written by: Octavius Winslow
Written by: Octavius Winslow
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To keep the malice and slander down to a minimum and to hopefully avoid things like this in the future amongst us believers - it was the "behavior" of people in the threads that has caused the major problems.
If people still behave with foul behavior - just ignore them and don't interact with them anymore just like Paul says. Rom. 16:17 - 1 Cor. 15:33, and then we can get into a Hebrews 12:15 situation.
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Here is the quote about "bad behavior".
Quote
BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:
1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin
I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue . And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it. remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough.
I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.
God bless,
very respectfully,
CS1
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143507-hyper-grace-preachers-doctrine-cc.html
Unquote:
It was the foul behavior that was being done amongst the brethren that the mods requested no more using of the term "hyper-grace". Unfortunately some continue to violate this request and still bring the term into the posts.
Some people were starting threads specifically to attack other ministers in the body of Christ and they wanted this stopped as well as it was causing strife and division.
We could all learn from this concerning any topic where there is disagreement. We can just agree to disagree in some areas without the personal attacks on those that hold a different view then "I and my group" does.
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
If people still behave with foul behavior - just ignore them and don't interact with them anymore just like Paul says. Rom. 16:17 - 1 Cor. 15:33, and then we can get into a Hebrews 12:15 situation.
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Here is the quote about "bad behavior".
Quote
BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:
1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin
I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue . And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it. remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough.
I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.
God bless,
very respectfully,
CS1
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143507-hyper-grace-preachers-doctrine-cc.html
Unquote:
It was the foul behavior that was being done amongst the brethren that the mods requested no more using of the term "hyper-grace". Unfortunately some continue to violate this request and still bring the term into the posts.
Some people were starting threads specifically to attack other ministers in the body of Christ and they wanted this stopped as well as it was causing strife and division.
We could all learn from this concerning any topic where there is disagreement. We can just agree to disagree in some areas without the personal attacks on those that hold a different view then "I and my group" does.
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
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Ariel82
Guest
Wow such a lovely poem. Thank you for sharing. It is a blessing to read it tonight.
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Ariel82
Guest
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Ariel82
Guest
This is a true blessing, Bill. Its testimonies like this that remind me that whatever we go through in this life, God can make our trials and tests into testimonies.
As you know, I share the passion for NOT writing people off because of outward appearances.
God works in the heart and His wisdom can't be understood by this world.
The is thread can become quite passionate but it's posts like this that make it worth coming back to and reading.
Thanks and God bless you and yours brother Bill.
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Ariel82
Guest
All Word of faith preachers are false prophets that bring demonic poisoned dung covered candy to tempt God's children with lies and false promises.
We have many followers of word of faith preachers on this forum.
If people want to buy it and eat it, God has given them free will to choose too. However, I feel that I should warn folks that it's dung no matter what people put on it to dress it up as acceptable or biblical.
*******
2 Peter 2 ►
English Standard Version
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hella and committed them to chainsb of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;c 7and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,d and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.
****
That being said, I believe it better to speak of Biblical faith and grace because then the lies are easy to spot.
We have many followers of word of faith preachers on this forum.
If people want to buy it and eat it, God has given them free will to choose too. However, I feel that I should warn folks that it's dung no matter what people put on it to dress it up as acceptable or biblical.
*******
2 Peter 2 ►
English Standard Version
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hella and committed them to chainsb of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;c 7and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,d and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.
****
That being said, I believe it better to speak of Biblical faith and grace because then the lies are easy to spot.
I think Grace777 was talking to AllenW, who was talking to someone, who was talking to Grace, who was talking to someone, that I'm not sure of - dual conversation taking place in this thread I believe - but you are always welcome, of course.
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Ariel82
Guest
I think Grace777 was talking to AllenW, who was talking to someone, who was talking to Grace, who was talking to someone, that I'm not sure of - dual conversation taking place in this thread I believe - but you are always welcome, of course.
Thanks, but I have read enough to wish I never commented on G777 post.
I hate the topic of hyper grace.
Not because it doesn't exist as some claim. Or because everyone who is against works salvationist are hyper gracers as others accuse.
I dislike it because it cause strife and contention because we do have a few who support "hyper grace" preachers and Word of Faith preachers who accuse folks who don't support their false teachers as works salvationnist...., then we have works salvationist accuse people who believe and preach Biblical grace to be hyper gracers.....(only takes a couple to throw a grenade)
It becomes a mess and the whole conversation goes downhill with name caling and false representation because everyone gets grouped into "them" and "us" because folks who don't see that some of the folks who claim to believe in Biblical grace and faith lean a little too far and have fallen into the ditch of hyper grace or works salvation.
I thought about NOT Posting this because in truth I am weary of seeing the cycle repeat, but I figured...why not?
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Photo of my wife and I about 5yrs ago in Thailand - In 2012 we received the bad news, cancer, and 2yrs later we moved from our home in Thailand back to California so that I could continue my cancer treatment. Maybe this is to much info but thought you may want to know - God bless!
Here are a few photo's from our Church Family near home. Thailand is 90 percent Buddhist and 2 percent Christian, with a population of 65 million. Most Thai's do not think they have a need to be saved so it is difficult when you present to them the idea of a Savior who died for their sins - Buddhism is a merit based religion. Most Thai village family life revolves around Temple worship, from birth until death. The Christian Hill tribes people, Hmongs, Karen, Lisu and Yao, can wait for years for 1 or 2 new believer's in "Jesu - Jesus" - it is such a joy to be a witness for Jesus Christ to Thai people - they love to hear the Gospel News, but few who want to leave the safety of their childhood faith. - God bless!
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Ariel82
Guest
Truthtalk, I was raised Buddhist. My family is Cambodian.
How did you witness to people in Thailand?
I have been researching and praying a lot. Have a few ideas but would love to hear from people with first hand experience in the mission field.
How did you witness to people in Thailand?
I have been researching and praying a lot. Have a few ideas but would love to hear from people with first hand experience in the mission field.
Here is an clean/active link that I think you will love - taken from my Christian blog:
Thai Missions Library
It's an excellent resource check it out. My wife is from Northern Thailand, City of Lamphum. When we retired there in 2008 to live with her Mom and family, (she has 100 relatives), I soon went to work on her Aunt's 200 acre plantation - 300 fruit trees, 3 rice fields and 3 fish ponds and one frog pond. I worked side by side with the Thai farmers for 5yrs - this included a lovely married Karen women and the Mayor of the The town of, "Nong Lom" - Nong means friend, and Lom means windy - Translated, "Friendly Wind." First of all I need to say how sadden I am when I consider the unspeakable horror that happened in your country - you are truly God's miracle for all of us to see and secondly I need to tell you that I was a US soldier in the Vietnam war and I went to Cambodia for a 6 day mission in June of 1970. Now after saying all that, if you want to be friends, sure it's okay with me - Thai smile,
Hi again Ariel82, as I've explained before here, I typed in the wrong birth date. I am 67 not 62, I was born in 1950, not 1955. My wife said I typed in her birthday accidentally on purpose - maybe so, I don't Know. But I tried and cannot fix the problem.
No man is capable of dioing anything to "help" God, but all men may avail themselves to Him as vessels of His service.
It is written, I understand, all we may give to God is thanksgiving.....I understand this yet I quote it.
There is the mistaken work a person may do to help out the Father but it is istaken if it is not given by Him for the servant to serve.
Again, I undersand when it is written, we must labour to enter into His rest.
Here is a paste of somethinge else I undersand. I do not ike to paste much because anyone may do this, but I see volumes in the forum being pasted wthout any understanding, twisting the few words here and there to fit a personal argument.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Word is consistenet. Obedience is not works of any kind, it is our due, jkust as we obey our parents i in this age, how much more must we obey our Father Who is in heaven!
Jesus Christ has fuflilled the law in regards to priesthood, the Templle, diet, and many more. There are no longer 613 laws but less than a huindred on morality. Morality will never be out of fashion or obsolete as long as we are yet in this age.
I have not read anything in this thread because I know how the mention of obedience stirs up accusations of being under the law. Well our Salvaion, Jesus, has taught ut s to obey the commandments. If a person reading this does not yet know how what and why, it is only because that person does not know the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Although He was eprfectly obedient for each of us who are saved, He was never "undr the law," and, neither are we who obey Him. It seems those who are truly under the law are those who prop themselves up as interpreters of the law and the Word, usually never having studeid them, and have a quick finger to point due to their legalistic doctrines.
If we are to imitate Christ, we will do as He did, be obedient to the end, knowing He has won the victory for all who believe Him, and being grateful....grateful: giving God thanks.
It is written, I understand, all we may give to God is thanksgiving.....I understand this yet I quote it.
There is the mistaken work a person may do to help out the Father but it is istaken if it is not given by Him for the servant to serve.
Again, I undersand when it is written, we must labour to enter into His rest.
Here is a paste of somethinge else I undersand. I do not ike to paste much because anyone may do this, but I see volumes in the forum being pasted wthout any understanding, twisting the few words here and there to fit a personal argument.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Word is consistenet. Obedience is not works of any kind, it is our due, jkust as we obey our parents i in this age, how much more must we obey our Father Who is in heaven!
Jesus Christ has fuflilled the law in regards to priesthood, the Templle, diet, and many more. There are no longer 613 laws but less than a huindred on morality. Morality will never be out of fashion or obsolete as long as we are yet in this age.
I have not read anything in this thread because I know how the mention of obedience stirs up accusations of being under the law. Well our Salvaion, Jesus, has taught ut s to obey the commandments. If a person reading this does not yet know how what and why, it is only because that person does not know the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Although He was eprfectly obedient for each of us who are saved, He was never "undr the law," and, neither are we who obey Him. It seems those who are truly under the law are those who prop themselves up as interpreters of the law and the Word, usually never having studeid them, and have a quick finger to point due to their legalistic doctrines.
If we are to imitate Christ, we will do as He did, be obedient to the end, knowing He has won the victory for all who believe Him, and being grateful....grateful: giving God thanks.
Hi Bill,
Your testimony brought to mind two issues.
Loving people for who they are.
Valuing people only because they believe like one does.
Friends. Friends exist because they mean something to us. The problem comes if this meaning
to them is distant, and we feel we have nothing to offer.
Many love a projection, the person they see and not the person within. It is hard to communicate
with small interactions the value of another. In a large community it often becomes one among many,
just a face.
So we use the term friend, but actually it is really acquaintence, a passing of two people who vaguely
know each other, and probably may never connect. Just take your wife or husband and think how you
connect and you will begin to see the issues, and how we want often something that is a romantic ideal
that has no reality in life.
Jesus calls us to know the real person within, and then meet with them.
And it takes time, and being open and vulnerable.
Jesus calls us to love others.
It appears some feel their mission is to expose and condemn others, so their approach is
undermining and slander, emotional rejection and disowning their experiences.
I had this first two years ago, someone saying my experience of reaching out to God and finding
love and acceptance, was actually finding the enemy.
Now this takes some wisdom to see through. Firstly I was shocked for months. 2nd if I met Christ
through this experience, and saving love that transformed my life through the cross and Christ, what
spirit was speaking through this person and why was true love such a threat to them?
On theology I expect lively debate, but this level of spiritual assault, never from believers.
Love no matter who it comes from should be praised. It is God working in a dark world.
It is the poison of sin that destroys and kills, and this is our enemy which through Christ we
have the victory. Wolves always come to destroy and kill, love always builds up.
